User talk:Flynnjed

Hey! Great contributions to the QHS:FGM page. Just a quick reminder: don't use personal pronouns - if needed, just phrase the sentences in a passive voice (e.g. rather than "we can deduce from this", do "it can be deduced from this", or, even better - if there is actual precedence - do "it has been deduced from this"). This helps maintain a more encyclopedic tone.

Also, the idea of the sunnah being used to interpret the Quran is obviously a part of the Islamic tradition. However, the wiki aspires to incorporate historical-critical scholarship at some point, so it help to distinguish traditionalist methodology from what might be a more objective, historical perspective. So, you could say that 'traditionalists use the hadith to interpret this verse to mean ... [provide a source, cite a tafsir, if possible]' rather than saying 'xyz hadiths positively prove that the Quran means ABC'. The latter phrasing is misleading because, historically speaking, the hadith were probably made up to explain the verse. So we should distinguish between 'traditionalists say xyz based on the hadiths, etc.' and 'modern historians have discovered...'. Does that make sense?

Also, I realize in saying all this that a good deal of the wiki doesn't actually meet this criterea yet, but of course the work of restoring old content on the wiki is in progress atm and will be for some time. Keep up the good work. IbnPinker (talk) 16:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks IbnPinker - I appreciate your improvements and your comments make sense. I will try to integrate them into my style.

I don't want to come across as over-zealous and impatient, but I have a lot more I hope to contribute on FGM (and possibly eventually on MGM/circumcision). I think that the issue may be better presented over several pages. In the sandbox, I'm currently sketching out something on the social origins of FGM (the hadith that explicitly mention FGM do not alone explain the existence of FGM): Islamic doctrine - especially on polygyny - also creates conditions that are favourable to FGM, that can make FGM (or related practices) 'useful' or even 'necessary'. As far as I can tell, this is a new perspective on FGM (at least I've not read it articulated elsewhere) though it is entirely a product of established and authoritative work on FGM, polygyny and Islam.

I mention this because I'm working in the 'WikiIslam:Sandbox' and my worry is whether this sandbox is shared by other editors? And if it is, does that mean that if someone else uses it my work will be erased? If this is the case then I will need to save the page's coding on my desktop each time I finish a session. (in Editing Help there is mention of 'user sandboxes' - but I presume that I'm not able to create one yet). Apologies if my worries are a bit naïve... Flynnjed (talk) 06:13, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

The zeal to contribute is a marvelous thing. And I agree with you entirely - FGM and MGM should each have their own pages on the wiki. ATM, there is only a QHS page on FGM, which, like all QHS pages, is simply intended as a place to compile primary sources. The sort of work you are doing is better suited to a dedicated FGM page and MGM page. I've gone ahead and made this page for FGM. You should move your substantive edits to that page instead (and add a lead, etc. - the QHS page should really just be primary sources with an optional text summary of the quotes/any given section of quotes, as you can see on any other QHS page). For MGM, perhaps the page is better titled 'Male Circumcision in Islamic Law', as this is how it is more commonly known. Alternatively, we could have a page titled 'Khitan (Circumcision) in Islamic Law' which could be for either Male circumcision alone or both FGM and Male circumcision. What are your thoughts?

Also, try to see if you are able to create this page: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Flynnjed/Sandbox - If you aren't able to create this page for some reason, I'll work with other site admins to make sure this is functional in the future. As it stands, you are correct - any other editor would be able to remove your content from WikiIslam:Sandbox, and this is not ideal (however, you would still be entirely able to recover the work by viewing a previous version of the page under 'view history' in the top right corner of the screen).

Finally, if you encounter any other confusing instructions in the policy/guideline pages, let me know or even make an edit. We went through all of them to update their contents but they will likely need to be continually refined as the wiki returns to regular editor activity. IbnPinker (talk) 15:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I just posted a brief summary of FGM I'd written elsewhere on the wiki on the FGM page for the time being, see what you think. Feel free to edit/integrate as useful. Also, if you continue making quality contributions, we will be able to upgrade your editor status so that you can edit pages directly - can't make any promises on how soon this would be, however. Eventually we want to have a clear-cut editor promotion timeline but we are doing without one atm. IbnPinker (talk) 15:36, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Just a note, if you wish to continue to discuss the article as it develops, please utilize the page's discussion page. If you want to discuss plans for larger projects, please use our WikiIslam:Discussions page. We want to let everyone take part in these discussions, since they are good, and surface them for the general reading audience in case there are more interested people out there.Asmith (talk) 04:02, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

>"For MGM, perhaps the page is better titled 'Male Circumcision in Islamic Law', as this is how it is more commonly known."

I agree - it would be best to use the term that people coming to WikiIslam would be most familiar with and most likely to search for.

>"Alternatively, we could have a page titled 'Khitan (Circumcision) in Islamic Law' which could be for either Male circumcision alone or both FGM and Male circumcision. What are your thoughts?"

TBH I'm not sure. Could we return to this question as I become more experienced and get a clearer picture of things? There are commonalities between FGM and Male Circumcision, but there are enough differences to make me cautious about associating them on too general a level. Maybe a page for 'Genital Mutilations' which gave an overview of things, and where the commonalities and differences between Male Circumcision and FGM can be outlined? Such a page could include a section clarifying the definitions of terms associated with genital mutilation - 'khitan' in particular, but also 'khaffad' and 'bazr' (there may be some other terms associated with male circumcision - I have yet to investigate this).

>" if you encounter any other confusing instructions in the policy/guideline pages, let me know or even make an edit."

OK, I'll do what I can, though at this stage I'm not yet able to determine whether any confusion is due to the instruction not being clear or because of my own stupidity. But if I see anything that I feel able to correct I'll give it a go.

>"try to see if you are able to create this page: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Flynnjed/Sandbox"

I've clicked on the link but I get a page (with none of the 'edit' tabs) which says: "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page."

>"I just posted a brief summary of FGM I'd written elsewhere on the wiki on the FGM page for the time being, see what you think."

What you've written is good. I'll check my notes to see if I have anything to add - maybe we could add sections for each school - I seem to remember that their position on FGM (and other matters) depends a lot on how they make a heirarch of their interpretative resources (itjma, qiyas etc). I've a few notes on Shia, Ibadi Islam too I think. I like using paired maps - for example a map showing the distribution of schools of Islam and another showing the distributions of FGM - but I also note that there are not many visuals in WikiIslam - other than the home page. Is this a policy?

>" Also, if you continue making quality contributions, we will be able to upgrade your editor status so that you can edit pages directly - can't make any promises on how soon this would be, however"

No worries - I'm fine being supervised. If I was given too much power at this early stage, I'm worried about the damage and chaos that might inadvertently ensue.

>"If you want to discuss plans for larger projects, please use our WikiIslam:Discussions page."

Thanks - I'll have a look at the relevant pages and make myself known.

Just a final point - my username is currently my real name. I note that most (other) editors use pseudonyms. Whilst I'm not over-anxious about this, I'd prefer to write under a pseudonym. Can this be arranged? Flynnjed (talk) 09:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I created that User:Flynnjed/Sandbox page, see if you are able to edit it without admin approval at every edit. Let me know if it works. Unsure if changing usernames is possible, but will get back to you on that. I agree on leaving further discussion of page names to the future, but, as Asmith suggested, more conversation on FGM/circumcision should be carried out here, on the relevant article's talk page: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Talk:Female_Genital_Mutilation_in_Islamic_Law

I will move what we have discussed on the topic so far to that page for future reference and for other editors to see. IbnPinker (talk) 15:41, 18 March 2021 (UTC)