User talk:Flynnjed

From WikiIslam, the online resource on Islam
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Hey! Great contributions to the QHS:FGM page. Just a quick reminder: don't use personal pronouns - if needed, just phrase the sentences in a passive voice (e.g. rather than "we can deduce from this", do "it can be deduced from this", or, even better - if there is actual precedence - do "it has been deduced from this"). This helps maintain a more encyclopedic tone.

Also, the idea of the sunnah being used to interpret the Quran is obviously a part of the Islamic tradition. However, the wiki aspires to incorporate historical-critical scholarship at some point, so it help to distinguish traditionalist methodology from what might be a more objective, historical perspective. So, you could say that 'traditionalists use the hadith to interpret this verse to mean ... [provide a source, cite a tafsir, if possible]' rather than saying 'xyz hadiths positively prove that the Quran means ABC'. The latter phrasing is misleading because, historically speaking, the hadith were probably made up to explain the verse. So we should distinguish between 'traditionalists say xyz based on the hadiths, etc.' and 'modern historians have discovered...'. Does that make sense?

Also, I realize in saying all this that a good deal of the wiki doesn't actually meet this criterea yet, but of course the work of restoring old content on the wiki is in progress atm and will be for some time. Keep up the good work. IbnPinker (talk) 16:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks IbnPinker - I appreciate your improvements and your comments make sense. I will try to integrate them into my style.
I don't want to come across as over-zealous and impatient, but I have a lot more I hope to contribute on FGM (and possibly eventually on MGM/circumcision). I think that the issue may be better presented over several pages. In the sandbox, I'm currently sketching out something on the social origins of FGM (the hadith that explicitly mention FGM do not alone explain the existence of FGM): Islamic doctrine - especially on polygyny - also creates conditions that are favourable to FGM, that can make FGM (or related practices) 'useful' or even 'necessary'. As far as I can tell, this is a new perspective on FGM (at least I've not read it articulated elsewhere) though it is entirely a product of established and authoritative work on FGM, polygyny and Islam.
I mention this because I'm working in the 'WikiIslam:Sandbox' and my worry is whether this sandbox is shared by other editors? And if it is, does that mean that if someone else uses it my work will be erased? If this is the case then I will need to save the page's coding on my desktop each time I finish a session. (in Editing Help there is mention of 'user sandboxes' - but I presume that I'm not able to create one yet). Apologies if my worries are a bit naïve... Flynnjed (talk) 06:13, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The zeal to contribute is a marvelous thing. And I agree with you entirely - FGM and MGM should each have their own pages on the wiki. ATM, there is only a QHS page on FGM, which, like all QHS pages, is simply intended as a place to compile primary sources. The sort of work you are doing is better suited to a dedicated FGM page and MGM page. I've gone ahead and made this page for FGM. You should move your substantive edits to that page instead (and add a lead, etc. - the QHS page should really just be primary sources with an optional text summary of the quotes/any given section of quotes, as you can see on any other QHS page). For MGM, perhaps the page is better titled 'Male Circumcision in Islamic Law', as this is how it is more commonly known. Alternatively, we could have a page titled 'Khitan (Circumcision) in Islamic Law' which could be for either Male circumcision alone or both FGM and Male circumcision. What are your thoughts?
Also, try to see if you are able to create this page: - If you aren't able to create this page for some reason, I'll work with other site admins to make sure this is functional in the future. As it stands, you are correct - any other editor would be able to remove your content from WikiIslam:Sandbox, and this is not ideal (however, you would still be entirely able to recover the work by viewing a previous version of the page under 'view history' in the top right corner of the screen).
Finally, if you encounter any other confusing instructions in the policy/guideline pages, let me know or even make an edit. We went through all of them to update their contents but they will likely need to be continually refined as the wiki returns to regular editor activity. IbnPinker (talk) 15:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
I just posted a brief summary of FGM I'd written elsewhere on the wiki on the FGM page for the time being, see what you think. Feel free to edit/integrate as useful. Also, if you continue making quality contributions, we will be able to upgrade your editor status so that you can edit pages directly - can't make any promises on how soon this would be, however. Eventually we want to have a clear-cut editor promotion timeline but we are doing without one atm. IbnPinker (talk) 15:36, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Just a note, if you wish to continue to discuss the article as it develops, please utilize the page's discussion page. If you want to discuss plans for larger projects, please use our WikiIslam:Discussions page. We want to let everyone take part in these discussions, since they are good, and surface them for the general reading audience in case there are more interested people out there.Asmith (talk) 04:02, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
>"For MGM, perhaps the page is better titled 'Male Circumcision in Islamic Law', as this is how it is more commonly known."
I agree - it would be best to use the term that people coming to WikiIslam would be most familiar with and most likely to search for.
>"Alternatively, we could have a page titled 'Khitan (Circumcision) in Islamic Law' which could be for either Male circumcision alone or both FGM and Male circumcision. What are your thoughts?"
TBH I'm not sure. Could we return to this question as I become more experienced and get a clearer picture of things? There are commonalities between FGM and Male Circumcision, but there are enough differences to make me cautious about associating them on too general a level. Maybe a page for 'Genital Mutilations' which gave an overview of things, and where the commonalities and differences between Male Circumcision and FGM can be outlined? Such a page could include a section clarifying the definitions of terms associated with genital mutilation - 'khitan' in particular, but also 'khaffad' and 'bazr' (there may be some other terms associated with male circumcision - I have yet to investigate this).
>" if you encounter any other confusing instructions in the policy/guideline pages, let me know or even make an edit."
OK, I'll do what I can, though at this stage I'm not yet able to determine whether any confusion is due to the instruction not being clear or because of my own stupidity. But if I see anything that I feel able to correct I'll give it a go.
>"try to see if you are able to create this page:"
I've clicked on the link but I get a page (with none of the 'edit' tabs) which says: "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page."
>"I just posted a brief summary of FGM I'd written elsewhere on the wiki on the FGM page for the time being, see what you think."
What you've written is good. I'll check my notes to see if I have anything to add - maybe we could add sections for each school - I seem to remember that their position on FGM (and other matters) depends a lot on how they make a heirarch of their interpretative resources (itjma, qiyas etc). I've a few notes on Shia, Ibadi Islam too I think. I like using paired maps - for example a map showing the distribution of schools of Islam and another showing the distributions of FGM - but I also note that there are not many visuals in WikiIslam - other than the home page. Is this a policy?
>" Also, if you continue making quality contributions, we will be able to upgrade your editor status so that you can edit pages directly - can't make any promises on how soon this would be, however"
No worries - I'm fine being supervised. If I was given too much power at this early stage, I'm worried about the damage and chaos that might inadvertently ensue.
>"If you want to discuss plans for larger projects, please use our WikiIslam:Discussions page."
Thanks - I'll have a look at the relevant pages and make myself known.
Just a final point - my username is currently my real name. I note that most (other) editors use pseudonyms. Whilst I'm not over-anxious about this, I'd prefer to write under a pseudonym. Can this be arranged? Flynnjed (talk) 09:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
I created that User:Flynnjed/Sandbox page, see if you are able to edit it without admin approval at every edit. Let me know if it works. Unsure if changing usernames is possible, but will get back to you on that. I agree on leaving further discussion of page names to the future, but, as Asmith suggested, more conversation on FGM/circumcision should be carried out here, on the relevant article's talk page:
Visuals and videos are completely allowed on wikiislam. I would even encourage them where they help explain content. You can upload images here: (this is linked in the left side bar menu at the bottom and titled 'upload file')
I will move what we have discussed on the topic so far to that page for future reference and for other editors to see. IbnPinker (talk) 15:41, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
The sandbox works fine! thanks! I've tried uploading a visual for the 'FGM in Islamic law' page but its returning an error message "You do not have permission to create new pages". Don't worry about this - there's enough for me to be getting on with for me not to have to worry about using images - I'll do that when the time comes. Flynnjed (talk) 16:38, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
What would you like to change your username to? fyi, if the name change works, you'd have to manually remove any existing mentions and I'd probably need to make you another sandbox page. IbnPinker (talk) 22:37, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
I've given a bit more thought about changing my username and would prefer not to. I've noticed some other editors have used their names. I've also done google searches for it and (rather disconcertingly) found that I'm sufficiently insignificant that nobody could trace me. So I'm happy to remain Flynnjed.
I'm making progress with the 'FGM and Islamic Law' page in my sandbox - but there are couple of images that really do need to be included, and whose absence is starting to hamper my work (I want to refer to one of the images in the text). Could you or someone upload the images on my behalf if I send the images in an email? Flynnjed (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
a slightly awkward question - what is WikiIslam's stance on copying information from one page to another? I am finding that sometimes its seems best to copy a paragraph from an existing page to use in the page one is writing. Normally this would be plagiarism, but something about the Wiki structure and ethos suggests that it may be acceptable, after all, if someone has expressed something perfectly on pageX then maybe it's not a bad thing to use that perfection on page y, which one is in the process of writing. Moreover isn't the content of WikiIslam essentially the intellectual 'property' of WikiIslam, not the individual editors? Could you clarify WikiIslam's stance on this please? Flynnjed (talk) 15:35, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Copying content between articles on wikiislam (but not from other websites) is perfectly fine and even necessary at this stage in the wiki's development. you can share the links for the images you want to host on wikiislam with me here (if they are already somewhere else on the web), or just email them to admin[at]wikiislam[dot]net and I'll upload them. I'll just name the images by whatever the file you share is titled.
Thanks. The images I need are at the following URLs:
Here they are, I removed the images from here to save space on this page:,,,,, IbnPinker (talk) 21:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for that - much appreciated. But I'm sorry to be a pain - I found this morning that I had a better map for polygamy - the one I used was rather 'coarse-grained', lacking a key or any distinctions. Could you please upload the following two pairs? I think they are an improvement. Flynnjed (talk) 07:00, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Here you are:, IbnPinker (talk) 17:48, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm working on a section for the FGM page on 'modern fatwas concerning FGM', but I think there are too many for me to include anything more than a selection. I think it would be good to have a page devoted to fatwas concerning FGM. I'd probably include 'traditional' fatwas on that page, as I don't have that many (11) and some are quite brief. Do you think we could create such a page? It'll help me organise my materials if I can 'shunt' the bulk of the fatwas onto that page and include a link to it in the relevant section.
Thanks for uploading the images. Could you upload the following for me please?
Sure, np. One thing to note: I haven't read your sandbox article but if you want to give a citation for the definition of badhr, you would need to provide a definition at least roughly contemporary to the text in question for it to useful. You can check the dictionaries here and here for a more legitimate source in that regard. For the latter of the two pages I linked, be sure to pick out a dictionary that is appropriate (you can google their names to see what they are good for. e.g. Hans Wehr is a modern arabic dictionary, and thus cannot be used to understand classical texts. Lane's Lexicon and Lisan al-Arab, by contrast and for instance, are classical dictionaries, and can thus be used to that end). You can still use google translate for definitions of arabic terms in modern arabic, which can still be very relevant, but just be aware of the classical/modern distinction. If I recall correctly from when I checked, the definition of badhr has changed over time and has frequently been ambiguous in its usage. Here are your images:,,, IbnPinker (talk) 19:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks IbnPinker - re 'badhr' - thank you for the links to Lane and ejtaal - it'll be interesting to see what they return. The section where I was thinking of using the image is one in which I deal with what appears to be a deliberate and unjustified bowdlerization of the word. I've included links to several on-line arab-english dictionaries, but none with the authority of Lane. On reflection, maybe the google translate and the accompanying image is a bit frivolous - a 'gotcha' for the internet age, if I'm going to include a screenshot, one from Lane will certainly be much more authoritative Flynnjed (talk) 04:12, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Could you (IbnPinker or Asmith or anyone else high up in WikiIslam) have a look at what I'm working on in my Sandbox (Female Genital Mutilation in Islamic Law)? I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel, but it's gotten really huge and I feel that I need someone to respond to it and make suggestions. Or just to stop me!
I feel that everything in it is justified, but I can also understand that 1/ it's too long 2/ that some sections may not be appropriate to either that particular page or even to WikiIslam in general (does WikiIslam do the sociology of Islam? My degree is in Sociology so I can't help but think it's a vital perspective). Personally I like it all on a single page, as each section builds on facts and concepts dealt with in previous sections, but I'm certainly open to some sections being transferred to other pages.
And before I forget - could you upload the following images please?
Here are the files:,,,,,
Excellent work on the article. I haven't had a chance to take a close look at it yet but can see you compiled a lot of good references, which is wonderful. Asmith and I are busy cleaning up some stuff on the QHS articles atm and it is relatively high priority that we finish that this weekend. I'll read through your article more closely on Monday. Meanwhile I'm going to poke Asmith about getting you on the discord so that we can discuss the article later in a more convenient way. In any case, you've done more than your part at this point - so, if you'd like to take a break, that's fine. I'll read your article and we can discuss it on Monday, hopefully over discord. Have a nice weekend! IbnPinker (talk) 23:40, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
I tried sending you an email from the WikiIslam admin address, see if you received it. IbnPinker (talk) 00:00, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, IbnPinker. I've joined the Discord group, but I'm new to Discord and am not sure how things work (a recurring experience for me...) - I'll blunder around in my usual fashion and see what happens.
>"so, if you'd like to take a break, that's fine" - I'll press on - I've got a following wind and am keen to make the most of it while it blows.
>"can see you compiled a lot of good references" - there could be a lot more - much of what I've written is from memory, so I was thinking of adding a lot of references later that are buried somewhere in various books, notebooks and hurriedly book-marked URLs. But I'm also aware that there can be too many references - it's one of the things I need a bit of guidance over. Anyway, we can discuss that over at Discord. I'll send you a message on Discord.
could you upload the following images, please?
Here you are:,,,,,,,,,
sorry to be a pain...I'm wanting to use the 'slideshow' display mode for the above graphs - but it looks really big and clunky. I suspect that smaller image sizes might improve the presentation, so I've resized the graphs. Could you upload the following resized versions? If you want to delete the previous set feel free.
I think I'm ready to start redistributing material to the three pages we talked about - QHS:FGM / FGM in Islam / FGM in Islamic law. Could you create the first two pages please? There's still some 'polishing' to do, but I think I will do that best as I go along.
I replaced the files at the old links with the new ones, so that slideshow should just automatically update. You can access the new images at each of the same links. Here are the three pages:,,,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation IbnPinker (talk) 17:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks IbnPinker. I think the slideshow looks better at the new size - but still a bit clunky, but I can live with it...
Hey, you posted the same text for the FGM and FGM in islamic law pages? Those need to be two separate articles with separate leads that simply link to one another. I can arrange for another call to clarify if that helps? Or are you planning to just start with the same text and then work on it in either place to two separate products? If so, maybe I should not have accepted the edits just yet? If you still need to prepare the articles separately I created another sandbox for you, which you can use for the second article and can remove the content from the real pages just for the time being: IbnPinker (talk) 18:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
upon closer look, I see they are not the same but that the FGM in Islam also contains all that is on FGM in Islamic law. The articles don't need to overlap in that way. The stuff on FGM in Islamic law should merely be summarized for the FGM in Islam article, which will also contain a link to the FGM in Islamic law page for those who want more details. IbnPinker (talk) 18:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- thanks for the second sandbox - since the pages probably require more than one session to complete, it's what I needed, but hadn't thought of requesting. The 'FGM in Islam' page is not ready for publishing - I copy/pasted it from my sandbox and was going to reduce down the sections we discussed. I feel that I'd completed most of the work on 'FGM in Islamic law' - but was going to try cut the lead down as it feels too long. I'll try to work as much as possible in the Sandbox, but somehow, psychologically, flaws become more salient when the text is set up on the destination page - so there's always additional polishing to be done even then. Maybe I can let you know in the discussion page when I feel a page is ready to be published? or is that making unnecessary complications?Flynnjed (talk) 04:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
do you think this image is suitable for the FGM in Islam page? or maybe the other two pages? I know it's a bit 'in your face' but it clearly illustrates what's at the nub of the whole issue ...
That image is extremely helpful and should be included - I was actually thinking to request that you include something exactly like this since most guys have a poor understanding of this anatomy. Here is the image:
Feel free to make your edits on the sandbox/live pages as needed. My only request is that you keep the live FGM in Islam and FGM in Islamic law pages distinct enough to avoid confusing visitors. If you want to just remove the content from the live pages until that can be achieved, that might be a good idea. My apologies that you have not received regular editing privileges yet, I am currently pestering the relevant admin to provide that to you. Finally, here is a third sandbox just in case it is of any use to you: IbnPinker (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
thanks for the third sandbox - it'll be useful as I'll be able to work on the three pages at once (often an improvement in formatting or phrasing for one page can be used for the other pages) without having to have one of them live. I'll remove the content from the 'FGM in Islam' page - as that's the one that probably needs the most work at the moment. I'll try to make the leads more distinct too - since that will what determines a page's first impression. Flynnjed (talk) 03:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
could you upload this image please?
Would you have a look at how I've formatted the fatwas section for the 'FGM in Islamic law page' ( - I've used the 'quote-text' template - which, I think, looks more elegant for massed quotations. I've also removed the category headings for the 'critical' fatwas' (which classified them according to the argument they were using) - as those categories only make sense on the 'FGM in Islam' page - where they co-ordinate with the 'debunking' section later on. I'm also going to more fully quote the critical fatwas.
Here you are:
Removing the internal categorization for the critical fatwas section is a logical move for the reason you describe. As for the formatting, we should be able to stick with the standard quote template if the majority of these fatwas are moved to the QHS FGM pages where such bulk references belong (,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation). This way the majority of the fatwas could be offloaded from this (non-QHS) FGM in Islamic Law page leaving only a representative sampling (say 3-4 fatwas from either perspective). That would be what we discussed. However, if you want to approach things differently, we can certainly reevaluate. Let me know what you think. IbnPinker (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
That's fine - my sieve-like memory and the illegibility of my notes has meant that I've been going by the summary of pages you sent me from our discord meeting. But I've no objections to what you suggest. I'll get onto that tomorrow. Flynnjed (talk) 17:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
I think that 'QHS:FGM' ( and 'FGM in Islamic law' ( might be complete. Would you give them a once-over? I don't mind you suggesting improvements as I'm kind of thinking of these three pages as being the steep learning-curve necessary whenever one starts a new project. I've included 6 favourable fatwas on the Islamic Law page (rather than the 3 or 4 you suggested) - the full section contains 32 and it didn't feel quite possible to distill them down to just 3 or 4. Flynnjed (talk) 13:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
I just scrolled through both of them and they look great. It isn't really an issue atm if these two pages seems somewhat similar - the point of the QHS page is to give a place to dump references, so if in the future anyone just wants to add another primary reference they can drop it off there without having to worry about integrating it into a regular article. This being the case, the two articles should evolve independently into more distinct entities in time. You can go ahead and post both articles into their actual pages at this point if you feel they are ready and can work from there. You should have auto-confirmed editing access at this point. IbnPinker (talk) 17:22, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
I've really pared back the QHS: FGM page and published the two pages. I'm going to start working on the 'FGM in Islam' page'. However, I think that the title 'FGM in Islam' is not quite right - I'm wondering whether some other title like 'FGM: its Origins, History and Sociology' might better represent its contents and tempt more readers? Flynnjed (talk) 07:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
I've been looking at the QHS:FGM page and it occurs to me that there's something that needs improvement. If you go to the Hadith section (,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation#Hadith) to where it says "To 'sit amidst four parts' of a woman is a euphemism for sexual intercourse" - it's not clear if the note applies to the previous quote or the subsequent one. Could the 'quote' template be adapted to include a 'notes' field, so it's clear to which quote a note applies? I appreciate that it's just a detail, and that any half-attentive reader will realise which quote the note applies to, but think it's a much about getting the feel and look of the content right - making the page more 'comfortable'. I'm guessing that adding a field after the 'source' field would do the job, but it's not apparent how this might be done. Flynnjed (talk) 07:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Just thinking - wouldn't the 'FGM as un-Islamic' section be better at the end of the FGM in Islamic law section? rather than on the 'FGM in Islam' page - which is shaping up to be very much the History and Sociology of FGM? Flynnjed (talk) 04:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
I've just been working on the 'FGM as un-Islamic' section and am not so sure that it would fit at the end of the 'FGM in Islam page' (as suggested in the previous message). But nor does it doesn't fit at the end of the 'FGM in Islam' page (or whatever that page's name should be). Maybe 'FGM as un-Islamic' should have its own page? Flynnjed (talk) 18:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Could you upload the following images please? I know that they are a bit much (I can't look at these without tearing-up) - but I'm wanting to clarify a subsidiary element of Islamic FGM -that anaesthetics are not used even when available because pain is part of FGM's functionality. Flynnjed (talk) 03:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Here are the images - are you still unable to upload them yourself? I believe your editing permissions were updated:,,
The title you suggest for the main FGM page is good, but sounds more like a journal article than a wiki article. If the origins, history, and sociology of FGM in Islam (plus a short summary of FGM in Islamic law) makeup the crux of what there is to say about the topic, then the article is generally comprehensive enough for it to be entitled as "FGM in Islam". If, on the other hand, there is more to say on the topic, then it is ok if it is presently incomplete - wiki articles are perpetual works in progress (the missing content will eventually be added). On the other hand, if you feel that you have so much to say about the origins and history and sociology of FGM in Islam that this discussion cannot be reasonably contained in an article aimed at giving a general overview of FGM in Islam - then we can make another page: we could have FGM in Islam, FGM in Islamic Law (a heavy section needing elaboration in its own article), and The Origins, History, and Sociology of Islam. If we take this latter route, the contents of this new third article would just be summarized under a header in the main, overview article (FGM in Islam), just like the content from the FGM in Islamic Law is included in summary fashion in the main article. Does that make sense? If so, you may proceed as you prefer - I can create that new page if you'd like. I just think it is wise to limit the number of pages to the minimum necessary to avoid complexifying things - but it may also be that creating more pages in this case is actually the simpler route.
For the QHS quote and the ambiguous comment you mentioned, you could just introduce a word like 'the above quote' or 'the below quote' to clearly indicate what a passage is referring too. As for 'FGM as un-Islamic', I agree that this is better suited to the FGM in Islamic Law page. IbnPinker (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
"are you still unable to upload them yourself? I believe your editing permissions were updated" - I tried uploading them, but I get "You do not have permission to create new pages." I'll keep the 'FGM as un-Islamic' section at the end of the Islamic Law page - but it might all be a bit long. I'm happy to stick with 'FGM in Islam' if it keeps things effective and efficient.

Hi, I know I've been away for a long time - working on other projects. I hope to get onto doing a page for (male) circumcision soon. I've noticed that the archive links for the FGM pages are all down. Evidently the archive machine I used was not reliable and I need to redo them. Can anyone recommend a reliable archive machine? Flynnjed (talk) 07:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)