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WikiIslam:Sandbox/Lowest Point on Earth Miracle: Difference between revisions
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WikiIslam:Sandbox/Lowest Point on Earth Miracle (view source)
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Islamic apologists attempt to claim that the “lowest spot on earth” is correctly identified by the Qur’an in one of many miraculous displays of scientific precocity in text. | Islamic apologists attempt to claim that the “lowest spot on earth” is correctly identified by the Qur’an in one of many miraculous displays of scientific precocity in text. | ||
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==Lingual claim== | ==Lingual claim== | ||
We shall stop here for a moment to examine this lingual argument . | We shall stop here for a moment to examine this lingual argument. It is clearly an invalid argument. Its obvious invalidity in reasoning comes from the second premise, which says that the word adna "can mean" lowest. It does not "necessarily mean", it just "can mean". Yet we have another meaning which is "nearest", so how we "know" for sure which translation was meant by the author? We simply can't, and the argument unfortunately does not help us in doing so, the argument does not prove its conclusion at all. | ||
It is a fundamental of logic that the argument to be valid, it must necessarily prove its conclusion, yet a presence of a counterexample (a possible situation in which the premises are true and the conclusion isn't) will always render the argument invalid, an unproven assertion, in our situation, the two premises still can be true while the conclusion is not true, simply if Muhammad only meant "nearest" , as all commentators and translators has understood all over the time, and among them there was prominent experts in the Arabic language . | It is a fundamental of logic that the argument to be valid, it must necessarily prove its conclusion, yet a presence of a counterexample (a possible situation in which the premises are true and the conclusion isn't) will always render the argument invalid, an unproven assertion, in our situation, the two premises still can be true while the conclusion is not true, simply if Muhammad only meant "nearest" , as all commentators and translators has understood all over the time, and among them there was prominent experts in the Arabic language . | ||
So, first of all, Muslims have to prove that the Quran's writer "necessarily" meant "lowest" when he said "adna", since its more obvious meaning is "nearest", and that's because, having another and a more obvious , used by all | So, first of all, Muslims have to prove that the Quran's writer "necessarily" meant "lowest" when he said "adna", since its more obvious meaning is "nearest", and that's because, having another and a more obvious meaning of the word, used by all translators. The lowest point miracle is a counterexample which makes it impossible to prove that the writer "necessarily" meant "lowest"! it is just a possibility, actually an improbable one! | ||
It's improbable because the writer could say it plainly, in non-equivocal statement, obvious for any one to notice, instead of no one in the whole 14 centuries. | It's improbable because the writer could say it plainly, in non-equivocal statement, obvious for any one to notice, instead of no one in the whole 14 centuries. | ||
In this case we can say that it is a re-interpretation after the discovery, dependent upon equivocation, which is easy to do in a rich-semantic language like the Arabic language with any text. | In this case we can say that it is a re-interpretation after the discovery, dependent upon equivocation, which is easy to do in a rich-semantic language like the Arabic language with any text. In the same way find variable different meanings of the Quranic words that renders the Quranic statements erroneous, would they then accept that the Quran is false? Or would they immediately appeal to counterexamples (other equally valid meanings), or even to metaphors? | ||
Actually, in many other cases, the obvious meaning of the Quranic words render the verses false, and Muslim apologists then appeal to improbable counterexamples to save situations, if not found, metaphors are always present to save situations. | Actually, in many other cases, the obvious meaning of the Quranic words render the verses false, and Muslim apologists then appeal to improbable counterexamples to save situations, if not found, metaphors are always present to save situations. | ||
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===Dictionaries=== | ===Dictionaries=== | ||
The word "adna" in the | The word "adna" in the Arabic language has nothing to do with meaning "low in elevation" it can mean "nearest" , "vile" , "less" and "cheap", it can mean low distance in between, low value of a thing, or low price, low position of a man,or low morality, but it HAS NO THING TO DO WITH "low elevation of places" meaning, it is similar meaning as obvious, but SEMANTICS IS NOT PROVED BY SUCH SIMILARITY. To prove that Muslims must mention a NATIVE LITERATURE using the word ''adna'' in the meaning of "low elevation of land". | ||
The meaning "lowest" may be felt in the modern use of the word only, NO OLD DICTIONARY at all states the claimed "low elevation of a land" | The meaning "lowest" may be felt in the modern use of the word only, NO OLD DICTIONARY at all states the claimed "low elevation of a land". There is NO OLD USE in that meaning too. | ||
Here is the links of the major old dictionaries in one link [http://baheth.info/ baheth.info/], these dictionaries are :- | Here is the links of the major old dictionaries in one link [http://baheth.info/ baheth.info/], these dictionaries are :- | ||
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The second point here is the historical claim .. | The second point here is the historical claim .. | ||
The quran did NOT talk about the basin of the dead sea, actually it talked about the place of the Roman-Sassanian battle, where was this? None on the basin of the dead sea, [http://www.ranker.com/list/a-list-of-all-roman%E2%80%93persian-wars-battles/reference list-of-all-roman-persian-wars-battles], the nearest to it was a battle in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deraa | The quran did NOT talk about the basin of the dead sea, actually it talked about the place of the Roman-Sassanian battle, where was this? None on the basin of the dead sea, [http://www.ranker.com/list/a-list-of-all-roman%E2%80%93persian-wars-battles/reference list-of-all-roman-persian-wars-battles], the nearest to it was a battle in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deraa Adhri'at] other one was in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem#Geography Jerusalem], both cities are above sea level, Dead Sea is roughly 1000 (or approximately 1,373) feet below sea level, Jerusalem, however, is roughly 2500 feet ABOVE sea level, so who ever adopt the "lowest land" meaning, he has basically proven that Muhammad was a false prophet since he mistakenly assumed that Jerusalem was the lowest part of the earth! Yet, we have more to say about this here. | ||
==Geographical facts== | ==Geographical facts== | ||
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The third point here is about whether the basin of the dead sea is really the lowest spot on earth ? | The third point here is about whether the basin of the dead sea is really the lowest spot on earth ? | ||
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_Earth#Lowest_point_.28natural.29 wikipedia] | {{Quote|[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_Earth#Lowest_point_.28natural.29 wikipedia]| | ||
Lowest point (natural) | Lowest point (natural) | ||
The lowest known point is Challenger Deep, at the bottom of the Mariana Trench: 10,911 m (35,797 ft) below sea level.[3] Only three humans have reached the bottom of the trench: Jacques Piccard and US Navy Lieutenant Don Walsh in 1960 aboard Bathyscaphe Trieste and filmmaker James Cameron in 2012 aboard Deepsea Challenger. | The lowest known point is Challenger Deep, at the bottom of the Mariana Trench: 10,911 m (35,797 ft) below sea level.[3] Only three humans have reached the bottom of the trench: Jacques Piccard and US Navy Lieutenant Don Walsh in 1960 aboard Bathyscaphe Trieste and filmmaker James Cameron in 2012 aboard Deepsea Challenger. | ||
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The point closest to the Earth's centre (~6,353 km (3,948 mi)) is probably at the bottom of the Arctic Ocean (greatest depth 5,450 m (17,881 ft)) near the Geographic North Pole (the bottom of the Mariana Trench is near 6,370 km (3,958 mi) from the centre of the Earth). }} | The point closest to the Earth's centre (~6,353 km (3,948 mi)) is probably at the bottom of the Arctic Ocean (greatest depth 5,450 m (17,881 ft)) near the Geographic North Pole (the bottom of the Mariana Trench is near 6,370 km (3,958 mi) from the centre of the Earth). }} | ||
{{Quote|[http://www.nps.gov/deva/naturescience/lowest-places-on-earth.htm /lowest-places-on-earth.]| | |||
[http://www.nps.gov/deva/naturescience/lowest-places-on-earth.htm /lowest-places-on-earth.] | |||
Earth’s Lowest Elevations | Earth’s Lowest Elevations | ||
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So it is the lowest point on the "DRY" land, lower points exist put covered with ice. | So it is the lowest point on the "DRY" land, lower points exist put covered with ice. | ||
== | ==Knowledge in Muhammad's time== | ||
As mentioned above the dead sea basin is the lowest point of dry land, 3 times lower than the next low point: | |||
As mentioned above the dead sea basin is the lowest point of dry land , 3 times lower than the next low point | |||
{{Quote|| | {{Quote|| | ||
Dead Sea (Jordan/Israel) -1360 feet (-414 m) | Dead Sea (Jordan/Israel) -1360 feet (-414 m) | ||
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Lake Assal (Djibouti, Africa) -509 feet (-155 m) }} | Lake Assal (Djibouti, Africa) -509 feet (-155 m) }} | ||
Approximately 35 kilometers (22 mi) away from it , is Jerusalem (2,490 ft) above sea level. | |||
That shows how steep is the slope of this area , make it easy to observe its depression. | That shows how steep is the slope of this area, make it easy to observe its depression. | ||
if this area is the lowest point on earth, so necessarily it is the lowest point in its surroundings, hence it is reasonable that people of this area called it the lowest land ! | if this area is the lowest point on earth, so necessarily it is the lowest point in its surroundings, hence it is reasonable that people of this area called it the lowest land ! | ||
That is exactly what happened, since the region of ( modern-day Lebanon, Israel, Palestinian territories, the western part of Jordan and southwestern Syria ) , exactly the surroundings of the dead sea, was a Semitic-speaking region in the Ancient Near East, called | That is exactly what happened, since the region of ( modern-day Lebanon, Israel, Palestinian territories, the western part of Jordan and southwestern Syria ), exactly the surroundings of the dead sea, was a Semitic-speaking region in the Ancient Near East, called Canaan and the word Canaan : | ||
{{Quote|[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan Canaan]| | |||
has an original meaning of "lowlands", from a Semitic root knʿ "to be low, humble, depressed" }} | |||
So what we have here, if we accepted the "lowest land" meaning of the quranic verse, it is nothing but a translation of the name of the region from the language of its local people into Arabic, without any need for a supernatural intervention, what is supernatural in translation! | |||
This is always happening, in Hawaii island, the largest volcano on "dry land" exist, no surprise it is called in the local language [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauna_loa Mauna loa] i.e "the long mountain", a miracle?! | |||
==Conclusions== | ==Conclusions== | ||