6,632
edits
The Islamic Whale: Difference between revisions
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
m
no edit summary
| [checked revision] | [checked revision] |
Prekladator (talk | contribs) |
mNo edit summary |
||
| (11 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
The Islamic whale (in Arabic الحوت | {{QualityScore|Lead=3|Structure=3|Content=4|Language=2|References=3}} | ||
'''The Islamic whale''' (in Arabic الحوت الإسلامي, ''al-hoot al-islami''), is a mythological creature described in Islamic texts that carries the Earth on its back. It is also called Nun (نون), which is also the name of the Arabic letter ن. Two alternative names of the whale are Liwash and Lutiaya.<ref> | |||
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs: "And from his narration on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he said regarding the interpretation of Allah's saying (Nun): '(Nun) He says: Allah swears by the Nun, which is the whale that carries the earths on its back while in Water, and beneath which is the Bull and under the Bull is the Rock and under the Rock is the Dust and none knows what is under the Dust save Allah. '''The name of the whale is Liwash, and it is said its name is Lutiaya''''; the name of the bull is Bahamut, and some say its name is Talhut or Liyona. The whale is in a sea called 'Adwad, and it is like a small bull in a huge sea. The sea is in a hollowed rock whereby there is 4,000 cracks, and from each crack water springs out to the earth. It is also said that Nun is one of the names of the Lord; it stands for the letter Nun in Allah's name al-Rahman (the Beneficent); and it is also said that a Nun is an inkwell. (By the pen) Allah swore by the pen. This pen is made of light and its height is equal to the distance between Heaven and earth. It is with this pen that the Wise Remembrance, i.e. the Guarded Tablet, was written. It is also said that the pen is one of the angels by whom Allah has sworn, (and that which they write (therewith)) and Allah also swore by what the angels write down of the works of the children of Adam" | Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs: "And from his narration on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he said regarding the interpretation of Allah's saying (Nun): '(Nun) He says: Allah swears by the Nun, which is the whale that carries the earths on its back while in Water, and beneath which is the Bull and under the Bull is the Rock and under the Rock is the Dust and none knows what is under the Dust save Allah. '''The name of the whale is Liwash, and it is said its name is Lutiaya''''; the name of the bull is Bahamut, and some say its name is Talhut or Liyona. The whale is in a sea called 'Adwad, and it is like a small bull in a huge sea. The sea is in a hollowed rock whereby there is 4,000 cracks, and from each crack water springs out to the earth. It is also said that Nun is one of the names of the Lord; it stands for the letter Nun in Allah's name al-Rahman (the Beneficent); and it is also said that a Nun is an inkwell. (By the pen) Allah swore by the pen. This pen is made of light and its height is equal to the distance between Heaven and earth. It is with this pen that the Wise Remembrance, i.e. the Guarded Tablet, was written. It is also said that the pen is one of the angels by whom Allah has sworn, (and that which they write (therewith)) and Allah also swore by what the angels write down of the works of the children of Adam" | ||
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=68&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2</ref> | http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=68&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2</ref> The details behind the mentioning of this creature is a unclear topic. There is little mention of Nun in the Quran, however there is further mention of it in other Islamic scriptures such has [[Hadith]] and [[Tafseer|Tafsir]] along with context verses. | ||
==Nun in the Qur'an== | ==Nun in the Qur'an== | ||
Nun is mentioned in the verse 68:1. | Nun is mentioned in the verse 68:1.<ref>نٓ وَٱلْقَلَمِ وَمَا يَسْطُرُونَ | ||
{ | |||
Nun. By the pen and what they inscribe, | |||
{{Quran|68|1}}</ref> Most respected scholars of Islam (Ibn Kathir, At-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi and others including Al-Jalalayn) agree that Nun refers to a whale that carries the Earth on its back:<ref>Al-Jalalayn on 21:87 | |||
*ذَا ٱلنُّونِ } صاحب الحوت} | |||
*{Man of the fish} companion of the whale (الحوت, ''al-hoot'') | |||
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=8&tSoraNo=21&tAyahNo=87&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | |||
</ref> | |||
Word-by-word translation: | Word-by-word translation: | ||
There is not much information in the Qur'an, but as we'll see, it is necessary to understand the existence of the Islamic whale for understanding other verses of the Qur'an. For example, | *نٓ - ''noon'' - the name of the whale | ||
*وَٱلْقَلَمِ - ''wal-qalam'' - by the pen (''wa-'' prefix means "and" or "by") | |||
*وَمَا - ''wa-ma'' - and what | |||
*يَسْطُرُونَ - ''yasturoona'' - they write | |||
There is not much information in the Qur'an, but as we'll see, it is necessary to understand the existence of the Islamic whale for understanding other verses of the Qur'an. For example, in verse 21:87 Jonah is called "man of the Nun", because he was eaten by a whale<ref>And [mention] the man of <nowiki>'''</nowiki>the fish<nowiki>'''</nowiki> (ٱلنُّونِ, <nowiki>''</nowiki>al-noon<nowiki>''</nowiki>), when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers." | |||
{{Quran|21|87}}</ref><ref>http://biblehub.com/library/marshall/the_wonder_book_of_bible_stories/the_story_of_jonah_and.htm</ref>: | |||
== Relevant Quotations == | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|68|1}}|نٓ وَٱلْقَلَمِ وَمَا يَسْطُرُونَ<br>Nun. By the pen and what they inscribe,}} | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|21|87}}|And [mention] the man of '''the fish''' (ٱلنُّونِ, ''al-noon''), when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers."}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|21|87}}|And [mention] the man of '''the fish''' (ٱلنُّونِ, ''al-noon''), when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers."}} | ||
Fish/Whale is mentioned in the same chapter as the letter nun: | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|68|48}}|Then be patient for the decision of your Lord, [O Muhammad], and be not like the companion of '''the fish''' (الحوت) when he called out while he was distressed. | |||
}} | |||
<br /> | |||
</ | |||
==Tafsir Ibn Kathir== | ==Tafsir Ibn Kathir== | ||
| Line 129: | Line 141: | ||
ن ("n") is a letter of the Arabic alphabet called نون (Nun). | ن ("n") is a letter of the Arabic alphabet called نون (Nun). | ||
* This doesn't explain the verse at all. If anything, it would mean that Allah puts random letters into his revelation for mankind, for no reason. | *This doesn't explain the verse at all. If anything, it would mean that Allah puts random letters into his revelation for mankind, for no reason. | ||
* Muhammad was illiterate and he did not write the revelations. He recited them. "Qur'an" means recitation. Maybe it was not just the letter ن ("n"), but the whole name نون ("nun"). It's just a matter of writing it. So maybe it was not meant to be a letter of the alphabet at all. Maybe it was the three-letter word N-u-n. | *Muhammad was illiterate and he did not write the revelations. He recited them. "Qur'an" means recitation. Maybe it was not just the letter ن ("n"), but the whole name نون ("nun"). It's just a matter of writing it. So maybe it was not meant to be a letter of the alphabet at all. Maybe it was the three-letter word N-u-n. | ||
* The verse 68:1 "نٓ وَٱلْقَلَمِ وَمَا يَسْطُرُونَ" could be translated as "Nun '''and''' the pen and what they write", since و usually means "and". It seems that Allah is enumerating 3 things (and enumeration usually donesn't mix things and letters): | *The verse 68:1 "نٓ وَٱلْقَلَمِ وَمَا يَسْطُرُونَ" could be translated as "Nun '''and''' the pen and what they write", since و usually means "and". It seems that Allah is enumerating 3 things (and enumeration usually donesn't mix things and letters): | ||
** Nun (ن or نون) | **Nun (ن or نون) | ||
** '''and''' (و) the pen (ٱلْقَلَمِ) | **'''and''' (و) the pen (ٱلْقَلَمِ) | ||
** '''and''' (و) what (مَا) | **'''and''' (و) what (مَا) | ||
** they write (يَسْطُرُونَ) | **they write (يَسْطُرُونَ) | ||
==="N" in "Ar-Rahmaa'''n'''"=== | ==="N" in "Ar-Rahmaa'''n'''"=== | ||
The word الرحمن, Ar-Rahman, "the gracious" is one of the names of Allah. The 13th sura starts with three letters الر, a few suras start with the letters حم. It we put together الر + حم + ن, we get الرحمن. | The word الرحمن, Ar-Rahman, "the gracious" is one of the names of Allah. The 13th sura starts with three letters الر, a few suras start with the letters حم. It we put together الر + حم + ن, we get الرحمن. | ||
* The word Ar-Rahman is nowadays actually written as الرحمان, but in the old Uthmani script it was written without the ا (alif) before the ن. It was added later, to indicate the "aa" vowel. | |||
* A lot of verses start on other [[Muqatta'at|letters]] and putting them together doesn't produce any interesting word. So choosing just three of them and getting an interesting word could be considered a cherry-picking. | *The word Ar-Rahman is nowadays actually written as الرحمان, but in the old Uthmani script it was written without the ا (alif) before the ن. It was added later, to indicate the "aa" vowel. | ||
*A lot of verses start on other [[Muqatta'at|letters]] and putting them together doesn't produce any interesting word. So choosing just three of them and getting an interesting word could be considered a cherry-picking. | |||
===Nun means "ink"=== | ===Nun means "ink"=== | ||
The verse 68:1 would mean "The ink and the pen and that which they write". | The verse 68:1 would mean "The ink and the pen and that which they write". | ||
* The Qur'an used the word مِدَادًا (''midaadan'') for "ink" in the verse 18:109, while it used the word نون (''nun'') to mean "whale" in the verse 21:87. So it is more probable, that the meaning of nun here is "whale". | *The Qur'an used the word مِدَادًا (''midaadan'') for "ink" in the verse 18:109, while it used the word نون (''nun'') to mean "whale" in the verse 21:87. So it is more probable, that the meaning of nun here is "whale". | ||
* According to this interpretation, this refers to the ink with which the Qur'an was written. Which is not very fitting, since the primary form of the Qu'ran is recitation. The word "Qur'an" itself means "recitation". | *According to this interpretation, this refers to the ink with which the Qur'an was written. Which is not very fitting, since the primary form of the Qu'ran is recitation. The word "Qur'an" itself means "recitation". | ||
==="Allah knows best"=== | ==="Allah knows best"=== | ||
| Line 160: | Line 173: | ||
===The hadith is ''mawqoof''=== | ===The hadith is ''mawqoof''=== | ||
When a hadith (narration) is called ''mawqoof'', it means that it is not a quote originally from Muhammad himself, but it is from someone from the Sahaba (his companions). In this case Ibn Abbas. | When a hadith (narration) is called ''mawqoof'', it means that it is not a quote originally from Muhammad himself, but it is from someone from the Sahaba (his companions). In this case Ibn Abbas. But Muhammad asked Allah to teach Ibn Abbas the correct interpretation of the Quran, so why would Ibn Abbas need to trace his interpretation to Muhammad, when he was taught by Allah himself? | ||
Besides that, there is a fatwa which says that a ''mawqoof'' hadith can be used as evidence if nobody protested against it: | |||
{{Quote|Fatwa 217021 <ref>http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=217021</ref>|As for taking it as evidence, it means that we have to act according to it and consider it a source of evidence of the Islamic religion. Scholars have ten different opinions regarding that issue. The nearest of them to correctness is that '''if the opinion of the companion spread widely and no one went against it, then it is a source of evidence and a consensus by silence'''. However, if it did not spread or some other companions went against it, then it is not a source of evidence, but can be used as secondary evidence. | |||
That is the case if reason and Ijtihaad (personal diligence) can be applied in the opinion of the companion; otherwise (i.e. if his opinion is something that has nothing to do with Ijtihaad like matters of the unseen or the stories of the previous Prophets), then it is regarded as Marfoo‘ (traceable) to the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, unless it is known that that companion used to take his information from the books of the People of the Book. | |||
The whale interpretation spread widely among the scholars and none of them discredited this story in any way. | Allaah Knows best | ||
}} | |||
*The whale interpretation spread widely among the scholars and none of them discredited this story in any way. | |||
*The whale story is not a matter of the unseen. It should be observable if you look for it beneath the Islamic [[flat earth]]. | |||
*Ibn Abbas was against taking information from People of the book <ref>''Narrated Ubaidullah:'' | |||
Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"'' {{Bukhari|9|92|460}}, book 96, chapter '''"Do not ask the people of the Scripture about anything"'''''</ref> | |||
*Muhammad asked Allah to teach Ibn Abbas the correct interpretation of the Quran, so the interpretation should be from Allah himself. | |||
===Only the early scholars believed it=== | ===Only the early scholars believed it=== | ||
As we've seen, the scholar Shawkani, who was born more than a thousand years after Muhammad's death, still wrote about the whale. So it's not just a matter of the early scholars. | As we've seen, the scholar Shawkani, who was born more than a thousand years after Muhammad's death, still wrote about the whale. So it's not just a matter of the early scholars. | ||
* About a century later after Shawkani wrote about the flat Earth on the back of a giant whale, non-Muslims from Russia managed to escape the round Earth and land on the Moon. | *About a century later after Shawkani wrote about the flat Earth on the back of a giant whale, non-Muslims from Russia managed to escape the round Earth and land on the Moon. | ||
===It's from the Jews=== | ===It's from the Jews=== | ||
The Quran was new to the Jews, so interpretation of the Quran couldn't be from the Jewish tradition. But there is a myth of a big sea monster called "Leviathan" in Judaism and Christianity: | |||
{{Quote|Ibn Hajar Asqalani, | {{Quote|Isiah 27:1| | ||
In that day, | |||
the Lord will punish with his sword— | |||
his fierce, great and powerful sword— | |||
Leviathan the gliding serpent, | |||
Leviathan the coiling serpent; | |||
he will slay the monster of the sea. | |||
}} | |||
It's not clear whether it is a whale or a dolphin or a crocodile. It was also described as a dragon and serpent. There are many different interpretations. In Judaism Leviathan is sometimes understood metaphorically as a great enemy of Israel. In Christianity Leviathan is sometimes understood as Satan. The Torah nor the Bible say that Leviathan holds the earth on its back, but there is a rabbinic text saying that Leviathan is a flying serpent who has "middle bar of the earth" between its fins: | |||
{{Quote|Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer (Ch. 9)| | |||
On the fifth day He brought forth from the water the Leviathan, the flying serpent, and its dwelling is in the the lowest waters; and between its fins rests the middle bar of the earth. | |||
}} | |||
So maybe the Islamic whale myth is based on one of the interpretations of the myth of Leviathan. But "It's from the Jews" is not an argument, because many Islamic teachings are inspired by Judaism. And Ibn Abbas, the ''turjuman ul-Qur'an'', is the one who interprets the Quran in this way. | |||
===Ibn Abbas narrated it from Jews, but didn't believe it=== | |||
There is a hadith telling Muslims to tell the stories of the people of Israel: | |||
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|55|667}}|Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr: | |||
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "'''Convey (my teachings)''' to the people even if it were a single sentence, and '''tell others the stories of Bani Israel (which have been taught to you)''', for it is not sinful to do so. And whoever tells a lie on me intentionally, will surely take his place in the (Hell) Fire."}} | |||
This hadith doesn't clearly say that Muslims should take the stories from the Jews. In the phrase "of Bani Israel" (عَنْ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ), the word عن could mean both "from" and "about". And the beginning of the hadith says literally "convey from me" (بلغوا عني), so it looks more likely that it should be stories about Jews, but from Islamic sources. | |||
We can read in a commentary on this hadith in Fath ul-Bari: | |||
{{Quote|Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Ahaadeeth Al 'Anbiyaa', Bab: Ma Thakr 'an Bani Israel <ref>https://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=52&ID=2078&idfrom=6279&idto=6300&bookid=52&startno=8</ref>| | |||
وقيل المعنى حدثوا عنهم بمثل ما ورد في القرآن والحديث الصحيح | |||
And it is said that it means relating traditions about them found in the Qur'an and authentic hadith. | |||
}} | |||
So the claim that Muslims should spread narrations from Jews is not supported by the hadith. | |||
The hadith is often combined by apologists with another hadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, from the chapter '''“Do not ask the people of the Scripture about anything.”''' (The name of the chapter says it clearly, but apologists still think that the hadiths in this chapter support telling false stories from Jews): | |||
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|92|460}}, book 96, chapter '''"Do not ask the people of the Scripture about anything"'''| | |||
Narrated Abu Huraira: | |||
The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said (to the Muslims). "Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' " | |||
}} | |||
This hadith doesn't say that Muslims should spread the Jewish stories. The most likely interpretation is that Muslims should ignore the Jews, because some of the Jewish stories is right, some is wrong, but the only truth is from Muhammad. | |||
Telling lies from Jews is forbidden, according to Imam Shafii: | |||
{{Quote|Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Ahaadeeth Al 'Anbiyaa', Bab: Ma Thakr 'an Bani Israel <ref>https://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=52&ID=2078&idfrom=6279&idto=6300&bookid=52&startno=8</ref>| | |||
من المعلوم أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لا يجيز التحدث بالكذب ، فالمعنى حدثوا عن بني إسرائيل بما لا تعلمون كذبه ، وأما ما تجوزونه فلا حرج عليكم في التحدث به عنهم [ ص: 576 ] وهو نظير قوله : إذا حدثكم أهل الكتاب فلا تصدقوهم ولا تكذبوهم ولم يرد الإذن ولا المنع من التحدث بما يقطع بصدقه | |||
It is known that '''the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not permit speaking lies when he said "relate traditions from the children of Israel", thus it is meant that you relate traditions that you know not to be lies and whatever you find to be compliant with your beliefs''' then there is no harm narrating those traditions from them. This is in obedience to the Prophet's statement "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them." He did not recommend nor prohibit relating those traditions that are known to not be lies. | |||
}} | |||
And finally a quote from Ibn Abbas himself, also from the chapter '''“Do not ask the people of the Scripture about anything.”'''. Did he support taking interpretations of the Quran from the Jews? Let's see: | |||
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|92|460}}, book 96, chapter '''"Do not ask the people of the Scripture about anything"'''| | |||
Narrated Ubaidullah: | |||
'''Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything''' while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. '''Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything?''' No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" | |||
}} | |||
===Scholars can be wrong=== | ===Scholars can be wrong=== | ||
| Line 189: | Line 267: | ||
==Conclusion== | ==Conclusion== | ||
* Nun definitely means "whale", because Jonah (who was eaten by a whale) was called "man of the Nun". | |||
* The ''turjuman ul-Qur'an'' Ibn Abbas, along with the most respected Islamic scholars, both sunni and shia, agree that Nun in the verse 68:1 refers to the whale which carries the Earth on its back. | *Nun definitely means "whale", because Jonah (who was eaten by a whale) was called "man of the Nun". | ||
* The Earth is supossedly attached to the whale with mountains. The mountains function as pegs. | *The ''turjuman ul-Qur'an'' Ibn Abbas, along with the most respected Islamic scholars, both sunni and shia, agree that Nun in the verse 68:1 refers to the whale which carries the Earth on its back. | ||
** So the Islamic whale also helps to explain the verse 78:7 about mountains being "pegs". | *The Earth is supossedly attached to the whale with mountains. The mountains function as pegs. | ||
* The scholars who based their knowledge on reading the Arabic Qur'an and hadiths believed that the Earth is flat and it is attached with mountains (as pegs) to a big whale. | **So the Islamic whale also helps to explain the verse 78:7 about mountains being "pegs". | ||
*The scholars who based their knowledge on reading the Arabic Qur'an and hadiths believed that the Earth is flat and it is attached with mountains (as pegs) to a big whale. | |||
==See Also== | ==See Also== | ||
* | |||
* [[Scientific Errors in the Quran]] | *The Masked Arab - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVhsVjXJzKM Islam & the whale that carries the Earth on its back] (video) | ||
*The Islam Issue - [https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2019/04/02/the-nun-whale-and-the-calamity-of-ibn-abbas/ The Nun Whale and the calamity of Ibn Abbas] (blog) | |||
*[[Scientific Errors in the Quran]] | |||
Apologetics and responses: | Apologetics and responses: | ||
* Zaify's article [https://medium.com/@galacticwarrior9/the-islamic-whale-debunked-1bc3a922b845 “The Islamic Whale” - debunked] | |||
** ''"The argument attempts to prove that the Qur’an implies the Earth is carried on the back of a whale."'' | *Zaify's article [https://medium.com/@galacticwarrior9/the-islamic-whale-debunked-1bc3a922b845 “The Islamic Whale” - debunked] | ||
*** No, the main point is that Muslims understood it that way. | **''"The argument attempts to prove that the Qur’an implies the Earth is carried on the back of a whale."'' | ||
** ''"...the matter at hand is a narration from Ibn Abbas rather than a direct claim made by a mufassir."'' | ***No, the main point is that Muslims understood it that way. | ||
*** Ibn Abbas IS a mufassir. | **''"...the matter at hand is a narration from Ibn Abbas rather than a direct claim made by a mufassir."'' | ||
** ''"Ijtihad means independent reasoning."'' | ***Ibn Abbas IS a mufassir. | ||
*** The Quran and the hadiths are the basis for reasoning of a Muslim. In Islam the Earth is flat. So within this ideology, it IS reasonable to expect something to hold the Earth. | **''"Ijtihad means independent reasoning."'' | ||
** ''"...an example where Ibn Abbas narrates contradicting Isra’iliyat reports regarding the dimensions of Noah’s Ark..."'' | ***The Quran and the hadiths are the basis for reasoning of a Muslim. In Islam the Earth is flat. So within this ideology, it IS reasonable to expect something to hold the Earth. | ||
*** Why he didn't say both versions in both narrations? It seems more likely that he narrated one version, but one of the hadith was corrupted. | **''"...an example where Ibn Abbas narrates contradicting Isra’iliyat reports regarding the dimensions of Noah’s Ark..."'' | ||
** ''"Nobody is criticising Ka’b al-Ahbar - or Ibn Abbas for that matter - for narrating Isra’iliyat. Rather, we are castigating those present the Isra’iliyat as narrations from the Prophet (ﷺ) or opinions of the companions, and so say that they must be believed by Muslims."'' | ***Why he didn't say both versions in both narrations? It seems more likely that he narrated one version, but one of the hadith was corrupted. | ||
*** But this is about the interpretation of the Quran and Muhammad made dua for Ibn Abbas, so that he can know the correct interpretation. Did the dua not work? And if it worked, why Ibn Abbas didn't oppose The Islamic Whale hypothesis if it was a wrong interpretation? | **''"Nobody is criticising Ka’b al-Ahbar - or Ibn Abbas for that matter - for narrating Isra’iliyat. Rather, we are castigating those present the Isra’iliyat as narrations from the Prophet (ﷺ) or opinions of the companions, and so say that they must be believed by Muslims."'' | ||
** ''"Nun (ن), is known in Arabic as one of the muqatta’at... their meaning is only known to Allah."'' | ***But this is about the interpretation of the Quran and Muhammad made dua for Ibn Abbas, so that he can know the correct interpretation. Did the dua not work? And if it worked, why Ibn Abbas didn't oppose The Islamic Whale hypothesis if it was a wrong interpretation? | ||
*** So how can you be sure that it doesn't mean whale? | **''"Nun (ن), is known in Arabic as one of the muqatta’at... their meaning is only known to Allah."'' | ||
** ''"The spelling of the two Nuns are different; they are only similar in pronounciation."'' | ***So how can you be sure that it doesn't mean whale? | ||
*** No. They are exactly the same in pronunciation. The letter ن ("n") is read as نون ("nun"). | **''"The spelling of the two Nuns are different; they are only similar in pronounciation."'' | ||
** ''"A comparison can be made with the English words hear and here. Although they sound identical, they have different meanings. It is not logical to claim that they have the same meaning because they have the same pronounciation."'' | ***No. They are exactly the same in pronunciation. The letter ن ("n") standing by itself is read as نون ("nun"). | ||
*** But we do NOT have ن and نون written differently by Muhammad or Ibn Abbas and then claiming that these differently spelled words have the same meaning. It was transmitted orally and it was pronounced "nun" in both cases. And how some people, dozens of years later, chose to write these orally transmitted traditions, is irrelevant. | **''"A comparison can be made with the English words hear and here. Although they sound identical, they have different meanings. It is not logical to claim that they have the same meaning because they have the same pronounciation."'' | ||
***But we do NOT have ن and نون written differently by Muhammad or Ibn Abbas and then claiming that these differently spelled words have the same meaning. It was transmitted orally and it was pronounced "nun" in both cases. And how some people, dozens of years later, chose to write these orally transmitted traditions, is irrelevant. | |||
{{Translation-links-english|[[Islámská velryba|Czech]]}} | {{Translation-links-english|[[Islámská velryba|Czech]]}} | ||
| Line 224: | Line 306: | ||
==References== | ==References== | ||
<references /> | |||