Diseases and Cures in the Wings of Houseflies: Difference between revisions

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Diseases and Cures in the Wings of Houseflies (view source)

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==Muslim Claim==
==Muslim Claim==


Apologists sometimes make absurd claims - like the fly wing hadith.
The thesis put forward by some Muslims is that it has recently been proven by modern science that flies carry not only pathogens but also the agents that limit these pathogens, thus proving the fly wing hadiths:


{{Quote||As narrated from Abu Hurayra and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri by al-Bukhari and in the Sunan, prophet Muhammad said: If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote.(Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537)}}  
{{Quote||As narrated from Abu Hurayra and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri by al-Bukhari and in the Sunan, prophet Muhammad said: If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote.(Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537)}}  


The thesis put by Islamists is that it has recently been proven by modern science that flies carry not only pathogens but also the agents that limit these pathogens, thus proving the fly wing hadiths. They principally identify these agents to be bacteriophages, though they also sometimes refer to fungi.  
They principally identify these agents to be bacteriophages, though they also sometimes refer to fungi.  


To bring the layperson up to date, bacteriophages (“phages”) are viruses that infect bacteria. It is a generality that all natural bacterial populations are limited by phages and environmental conditions, but it is a leap to suggest that these elements are antidotes. Mammals, too, are limited by pathogens, but it is foolish to suggest these pathogens are antidotal to mammals.  
To bring the layperson up to date, bacteriophages (“phages”) are viruses that infect bacteria. It is a generality that all natural bacterial populations are limited by phages and environmental conditions, but it is a leap to suggest that these elements are antidotes. Mammals, too, are limited by pathogens, but it is foolish to suggest these pathogens are antidotal to mammals.  
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"I found nothing among the variants to pinpoint the wing that carries the antidote but one of the Ulema said he observed that the fly protects itself with its left wing so it can be deduced that the right one is the one with the antidote."}}
"I found nothing among the variants to pinpoint the wing that carries the antidote but one of the Ulema said he observed that the fly protects itself with its left wing so it can be deduced that the right one is the one with the antidote."}}


This is ludicrous, but also what must be the starting point in debating Islamists on this subject. For if they say that the presence of phages proves that the hadith is correct, then pointing out that phages are not limited to any one wing, right or left, immediately proves the falsehood in the hadiths.  
This is ludicrous, but also what must be the starting point in debating on this subject. For if they say that the presence of phages proves that the hadith is correct, then pointing out that phages are not limited to any one wing, right or left, immediately proves the falsehood in the hadiths.  
 


===They make erroneous assumptions===
===They make erroneous assumptions===
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{{Quote||… from the perspective of logic, if the fly did not carry some sort of protection in the form of an antidote or immunity, it would perish from its own poisonous burden and there would be no fly left in the world.}}  
{{Quote||… from the perspective of logic, if the fly did not carry some sort of protection in the form of an antidote or immunity, it would perish from its own poisonous burden and there would be no fly left in the world.}}  


As far as we know, flies do not succumb to human pathogens – they are merely carriers. This shows that the Islamists do not understand pathogenesis. ''Flies do not succumb to human diseases.''   
As far as we know, flies do not succumb to human pathogens – they are merely carriers. This shows that those who make these claims do not understand pathogenesis.  
 
''Flies do not succumb to human diseases.''   


The way it works is like this: fly lands on feces or rotting carcass – gets traces of feces or rotting carcass on itself. Fly lands on human food – drops traces of feces or rotting carcass on human food – fly flies away – human consumes contaminated food and gets sick. Fly lives happily ever after.  
The way it works is like this: fly lands on feces or rotting carcass – gets traces of feces or rotting carcass on itself. Fly lands on human food – drops traces of feces or rotting carcass on human food – fly flies away – human consumes contaminated food and gets sick. Fly continues on with its life.  


C. They falsely assume relations that do not exist.  
C. They falsely assume relations that do not exist.  
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There are two errors here:  
There are two errors here:  


A. The common fly doesn’t carry malaria – that is carried by mosquitoes.  
A. The common fly does not carry malaria – that is carried by mosquitoes.  


B. There is no such thing as bacteriophagic fungi. This term may sound impressive to non-scientists, but bacteriophages are viruses and fungi are, surprise, fungi.  
B. There is no such thing as bacteriophagic fungi. This term may sound impressive to non-scientists, but bacteriophages are viruses and fungi are simply fungi.  


===They quote scientific articles that contain errors===
===They quote scientific articles that contain errors===
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{{Quote|1=|2=Gnotobiotic [=germ-free] insects (Greenberg et al, 1970) were used to provide evidence of the bacterial pathogen-suppressing ability of the microbiota of Musca domestica [houseflies] .... most relationships between insects and their microbiota remain undefined. Studies with gnotobiotic locusts suggest that the microbiota confers previously unexpected benefits for the insect host.}}  
{{Quote|1=|2=Gnotobiotic [=germ-free] insects (Greenberg et al, 1970) were used to provide evidence of the bacterial pathogen-suppressing ability of the microbiota of Musca domestica [houseflies] .... most relationships between insects and their microbiota remain undefined. Studies with gnotobiotic locusts suggest that the microbiota confers previously unexpected benefits for the insect host.}}  


This basically says that the microbiota of insects protect them from their (i.e. insect) pathogens. It doesn’t say anything about human pathogens carried by insects.  
This basically says that the microbiota of insects protect them from their (i.e. insect) pathogens. It does not say anything about human pathogens carried by insects.  


{{Quote||An article in Vol. 43 of the Rockefeller Foundation's Journal of Experimental Medicine (1927) p. 1037 stated: The flies were given some of the cultured microbes for certain diseases. After some time the germs died and no trace was left of them while a germ-devouring substance formed in the flies - bacteriophages. If a saline solution were to be obtained from these flies it would contain bacteriophages able to suppress four kinds of disease-inducing germs and to benefit immunity against four other kinds.  
{{Quote||An article in Vol. 43 of the Rockefeller Foundation's Journal of Experimental Medicine (1927) p. 1037 stated: The flies were given some of the cultured microbes for certain diseases. After some time the germs died and no trace was left of them while a germ-devouring substance formed in the flies - bacteriophages. If a saline solution were to be obtained from these flies it would contain bacteriophages able to suppress four kinds of disease-inducing germs and to benefit immunity against four other kinds.  
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{{Quote||The fly microbiota were described as "longitudinal yeast cells living as parasites inside their bellies. These yeast cells, in order to perpetuate their life cycle, protrude through certain respiratory tubules of the fly. If the fly is dipped in a liquid, the cells burst into the fluid and the content of those cells is an antidote for the pathogens which the fly carries." Cf. Footnote in the Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari by Muhammad Muhsin Khan (7:372, Book 76 Medicine, Chapter 58, Hadith 5782).}}  
{{Quote||The fly microbiota were described as "longitudinal yeast cells living as parasites inside their bellies. These yeast cells, in order to perpetuate their life cycle, protrude through certain respiratory tubules of the fly. If the fly is dipped in a liquid, the cells burst into the fluid and the content of those cells is an antidote for the pathogens which the fly carries." Cf. Footnote in the Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari by Muhammad Muhsin Khan (7:372, Book 76 Medicine, Chapter 58, Hadith 5782).}}  


Now it’s not only phages on the right wing, but the yeast cells inside fly stomachs and respiratory tubules. We assume it’s the yeast antibiotics they’re referring to. The presence of tiny amounts of antibiotics (produced by fungi) do not protect humans from enteric diseases. Islamists are confused about antibiotics – they do not understand how antibiotics work. Dosage is important. Modern antibiotics are artificial and highly purified. Treatment of bacterial infections involves ‘massive’ doses of purified antibiotics that are not found in the natural environment.  
Now it is not only phages on the right wing, but the yeast cells inside fly stomachs and respiratory tubules. We assume it is the yeast antibiotics they are referring to. The presence of tiny amounts of antibiotics (produced by fungi) do not protect humans from enteric diseases. Apologists are confused about antibiotics – they do not understand how antibiotics work. Dosage is important. Modern antibiotics are artificial and highly purified. Treatment of bacterial infections involves ‘massive’ doses of purified antibiotics that are not found in the natural environment.  


===They confuse the use of bacteriophage===
===They confuse the use of bacteriophage===
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A. The O1-phage is used for typing (i.e. diagnosing) Salmonella infections, not treating it.  
A. The O1-phage is used for typing (i.e. diagnosing) Salmonella infections, not treating it.  


B. Bacteriophage therapy was subsumed by antibiotic therapy in the 1940’s because it was largely ineffective. Before antibiotics, physicians were desperate for cures – they’d try anything, even bacteriophage therapy – but that doesn’t prove bacteriophage therapy works. In any event, one would need massive doses of phages to treat each case – which doesn’t occur in the natural environment. A fly dipping its right wing, left wing, or its entire body, will not be sufficient.  
B. Bacteriophage therapy was subsumed by antibiotic therapy in the 1940s because it was largely ineffective. Before antibiotics, physicians were desperate for cures – they would try anything, even bacteriophage therapy – but that does not prove bacteriophage therapy works. In any event, one would need massive doses of phages to treat each case – which does not occur in the natural environment. A fly dipping its right wing, left wing, or its entire body, will not be sufficient.  


===They do not understand what they purport to be proof===
===They do not understand what they purport to be proof===
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{{Quote||However, researchers in eastern Europe, including the former Soviet Union, continued their studies of the potential healing properties of phages. And now that strains of bacteria resistant to standard antibiotics are on the rise, the idea of phage therapy has been getting more attention in the worldwide medical community. Several biotechnology companies have been formed in the U.S. to develop bacteriophage-based treatments - many of them drawing on the expertise of researchers from eastern Europe." http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2000/Jul/hour1_072100.html}}  
{{Quote||However, researchers in eastern Europe, including the former Soviet Union, continued their studies of the potential healing properties of phages. And now that strains of bacteria resistant to standard antibiotics are on the rise, the idea of phage therapy has been getting more attention in the worldwide medical community. Several biotechnology companies have been formed in the U.S. to develop bacteriophage-based treatments - many of them drawing on the expertise of researchers from eastern Europe." http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2000/Jul/hour1_072100.html}}  


A. This article highlights one of the main limitations of bacteriophages in therapeutics, i.e. it is rapidly taken up by the human body and destroyed in human spleen cells. Therefore, even when a fly should carry bacteriophages, normal human physiology precludes these phages from acting as antidotes.  
A. This article they link to highlights one of the main limitations of bacteriophages in therapeutics, i.e. it is rapidly taken up by the human body and destroyed in human spleen cells. Therefore, even when a fly should carry bacteriophages, normal human physiology precludes these phages from acting as antidotes.  


B. Even if some biotechnology companies want to develop bacteriophage-based treatments, it doesn’t prove the hadith to be correct. These bacteriophage-based treatments involve the use of genetic engineering and other advanced scientific techniques to utilize bacteriophage pathogenesis for the treatment of human diseases. Naturally-occurring bacteriophages are useless for this purpose.  
B. Even if some biotechnology companies want to develop bacteriophage-based treatments, it does not prove the hadith to be correct. These bacteriophage-based treatments involve the use of genetic engineering and other advanced scientific techniques to utilize bacteriophage pathogenesis for the treatment of human diseases. Naturally-occurring bacteriophages are useless for this purpose.  


===They ignore non-bacterial enteric diseases===
===They ignore non-bacterial enteric diseases===
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