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:When replying, add one colon before you start the paragraph. If there is already somebody else's reply, every next reply must add one more colon. No need to write your name in the first sentence. You don't need any special knowledge of hadith. Just start reading and searching them for any topic. About sky: I think 22:65 should be in the same sky section but not Yusuf ali's words. Pickthall and shakir are correct because they dont write "rain" and it is not in the Arabic text. "Pillars" and "A piece of sky can fall on them" is present. Adding the same verses if they dont strengthen the article? Not sure but I was discouraged from doing it. Some sections will have a rolling list of verses. There is variety in the added sky verses so that each of them strengthen the claim of sky being a solid dome over earth. [[Flat Earth and the Quran]] article has most of the flat verses with Arabic word meanings. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:57, 7 September 2014 (PDT) | :When replying, add one colon before you start the paragraph. If there is already somebody else's reply, every next reply must add one more colon. No need to write your name in the first sentence. You don't need any special knowledge of hadith. Just start reading and searching them for any topic. About sky: I think 22:65 should be in the same sky section but not Yusuf ali's words. Pickthall and shakir are correct because they dont write "rain" and it is not in the Arabic text. "Pillars" and "A piece of sky can fall on them" is present. Adding the same verses if they dont strengthen the article? Not sure but I was discouraged from doing it. Some sections will have a rolling list of verses. There is variety in the added sky verses so that each of them strengthen the claim of sky being a solid dome over earth. [[Flat Earth and the Quran]] article has most of the flat verses with Arabic word meanings. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:57, 7 September 2014 (PDT) | ||
::Ok, so there is a much more extensive page on the flat earth, but not a cross link from the scientific errors page. About completeness or not I prefer to be complete. It is after all supposed to be an encyclopedia. And you avoid discussions what verse should be cited. And when it is not about science but priorities one can get a better sense of what is important in the Quran. But I don't set the standard here. I think YUSUFALI was not a good choice as the main reference for wikiislam, he differs significantly from most other translators. It seems he tried to create something more acceptable. But I also realize that any choice has its problems and controversy. When adding a verse that is translated significantly different in different translations how to treat this? Since it is, I think rightly, practice here to cite only one translation here: YUSUFALI.--[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 14:54, 7 September 2014 (PDT) | ::Ok, so there is a much more extensive page on the flat earth, but not a cross link from the scientific errors page. About completeness or not I prefer to be complete. It is after all supposed to be an encyclopedia. And you avoid discussions what verse should be cited. And when it is not about science but priorities one can get a better sense of what is important in the Quran. But I don't set the standard here. I think YUSUFALI was not a good choice as the main reference for wikiislam, he differs significantly from most other translators. It seems he tried to create something more acceptable. But I also realize that any choice has its problems and controversy. When adding a verse that is translated significantly different in different translations how to treat this? Since it is, I think rightly, practice here to cite only one translation here: YUSUFALI.--[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 14:54, 7 September 2014 (PDT) | ||
:::1. There is a cross-link right there, under the heading, "[[ | :::1. There is a cross-link right there, under the heading, "[[Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran#The_Earth_is_Flat|The Earth is Flat]]". Click on the link and see for yourself (it quite clearly says, "Main Article: Flat Earth and the Qur'an"). | ||
:::2. When has this site claimed it was only an encyclopaedia? As the [[WikiIslam:Policies and Guidelines|policies]] state, "''WikiIslam is not restricted to only being an encyclopedia of Islam. It is there for editors to make use of in contributing and arranging information about Islam in many ways. For example, compiling news, translating media, making lists, collecting images and videos, counter-apologetics, hosting online books and other documents, and so on.''" | :::2. When has this site claimed it was only an encyclopaedia? As the [[WikiIslam:Policies and Guidelines|policies]] state, "''WikiIslam is not restricted to only being an encyclopedia of Islam. It is there for editors to make use of in contributing and arranging information about Islam in many ways. For example, compiling news, translating media, making lists, collecting images and videos, counter-apologetics, hosting online books and other documents, and so on.''" | ||
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The first step would be to search and collect all Heaven related verses, hadiths and scholar quotes or at least the important ones that we want to show, and then the next step is to organize them. Quran 56:36, 78:33 and others (like the #15 reference there which is a hadith) can be in the "Carnal Pleasures" section for example. So yea its a pretty big project but here you go. Thats my input on this. I think I've seen our original page before and did feel it wasnt complete so if you can work on it that would be nice. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 14:00, 18 September 2014 (PDT) | The first step would be to search and collect all Heaven related verses, hadiths and scholar quotes or at least the important ones that we want to show, and then the next step is to organize them. Quran 56:36, 78:33 and others (like the #15 reference there which is a hadith) can be in the "Carnal Pleasures" section for example. So yea its a pretty big project but here you go. Thats my input on this. I think I've seen our original page before and did feel it wasnt complete so if you can work on it that would be nice. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 14:00, 18 September 2014 (PDT) | ||
::: Thanks for you reply Axius. I know the page is far from complete, and it is a reorganization of the original page, this means that I did not cut back on blocks of quotations, that is why the carnal pleasures were include in the furniture section. The same block of text is in the "Garden" section and in the "Pleasant Company" section. It is a matter of choice if you want to cut it back to the part that only contains "Furniture". Before a heated discussion rises again, let's all realize that any grouping is controversial. Dealing with issues one by one: <br> | |||
1) Do you or another editor agree with my choice that a whole section of Qur'an is included even if only one sentence refers to subject in the header? Or do you think only that very sentence should be quoted. Like the issue you mentioned: should the whole "heavenly" quote from the Qur'an, including the "pleasant company" part be quoted under the "furniture" section even if only one sentence in it refers to furniture? <br> | |||
2) If my page is better than the original it is best to copy it asap to the old heaven page, to avoid that one has to maintain two pages on the same subject. No quote has been left out from the original page. <br> | |||
3) I kept in mind the reply from Sahab about quoting things more than once, and that means that they will not be marked as such. <br> | |||
4) "Pleasant Company" suggests carnal pleasures but do not state them as such. That is why I prefer "Pleasant Company" as a header. <br> | |||
5) Where more than one verse is quoted I make the new verse start on a new line. That is why the layout looks different from the original page. <br> | |||
:You shouldnt be seeing any heated discussions from me :) not at least this soon in the discussion and even then I try to be calm and rational. | |||
:In my opinion we should not be putting this much organization work into a page which is already far from complete and is missing out on so many good things in the hadiths and scholars. Only after we get a nice collection we can think of the headings. As for the Virgins verse being included in a "Pleasant company" this sounds like something an apologist would do. We dont want to hide what is an obviously Carnal pleasure described in the Quran (78:33 for example). | |||
:No your page is not better because hiding a verse like this is not better than not having any headings at all. | |||
:''"That is why I prefer "Pleasant Company" as a header. "'' - why not? You didnt explain the "why". 78:33 is a Carnal pleasure and that is what we want to highlight. We might as well delete [[72 Virgins]] and retitle that to "Company of pleasant Women as described in the Quran". Obviously we cannot do that. | |||
:Your suggestions are exactly why I think it is best to keep new editors restricted to Sandboxes until they show they understand the mission of the site or what the appropriate thing to do is. Side note: We are lucky that a person like Sahab happened upon the site. I dont know what shape the site would be in if that didn't happen. Even then we all have disagreements on one issue or the other (thats ok, it happens all the time in any situation). Any way: | |||
:Repeating blocks verses is not a good idea. Not until we start collecting all the good stuff in hadiths and scholars and that is one point I brought up before as being the first thing that should be done and you have not addressed that. We are not in a hurry to improve this page so the additional stuff should be brought in first and headings and the issue of duplicate text can be dealt with later. When we do get those additional items, the heading "Carnal pleasures" will make perfect sense. There's already a collection of the 72 virgins hadiths (72 virgins, ever erect penises and appetizing vaginas etc) that can be repeated in the Carnal pleasures section. I'm sure there are many other things that can be found. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 18:06, 19 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::Axius, my knowledge is about the Qur'an and this is the scripture with most authority. To include the Hadith and Scholars is ambitious to say the least, and they have less authority. Most Muslims will have a Qur'an but I doubt that of the Hadith. This would take too much of my time to go through that. I thought I give you a hand with pages concerning the Qur'an. If you can convincingly debunk that "literal word of God", then whole Islam collapses. The Qur'an makes perfectly sense as a tool for a ruthless gangster, to create a submissive gang. I am gathering info for an essay on that and hope to publish it here. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 02:51, 22 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::''"To include the Hadith and Scholars is ambitious to say the least, and they have less authority."'' - oh wow. You do notice that the Page title says "Quran, '''Hadith and scholars'''". And now you're saying we shouldnt include hadiths and scholars on that page? lol. What about the other QHS pages? Do you think we should delete all hadiths and scholars in other QHS pages (for example [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Women QHS women]), yes or no? | |||
:::Keeping in mind your previous actions and edits (1. Virgins verse is listed under "Furniture", 2. "QHS should not have any hadiths and scholars". 3. Using a translator's word in brackets for a new section but that is much more forgiveable than 1 and 2 and you continue to defend #1), honestly I dont think this site is the place for you, but you are very welcome to keep working on Sandbox and in fact I encourage that because maybe one day you may understand how we work and the approach we use here and you may improve. | |||
:::Also can you explain why you added the Ransom section? Are you aware that words in brackets for translators are not actual arabic words? They use those to explain things in their own words. We cannot use those words for anything significant such as making a new heading (I repeat, the arabic word Ransom is not mentioned in that verse but anyone correct me if I'm wrong). | |||
:::From now on please refrain from editing main space articles any further. You can work on Sandbox articles in whatever way you want. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:20, 22 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::'''"my knowledge is about the Qur'an and this is the scripture with most authority"''' Jansen, you do realize that Sunnis are actually named after the literature you wish to dismiss (Sirah + Hadith = Muhammad's [[Sunnah]])? And also the fact that there are hadith that [[Stoning|overrule the words of the Qur'an]] (well, I and Muslims would say a better way to describe it is "supplement" its words)? Muslims may revere the Qur'an a lot more than the hadith, but to claim it has "more authority" is debatable. I agree with Axius. To suggest the hadith and scholars should be left out of a QHS page is ridiculous. They are valid religious texts that hold more value to the everyday life of a Muslim than the Qur'an ever will. And there is nothing at all "ambitious" about it. The wiki already has plenty of pages that cover all relevant religious texts (e.g. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception Lying]). And this is coming from someone who wishes for "completeness". | |||
::::Going back to an earlier point, rather than calling that section "Pleasant Company" or "Carnal Pleasures", I would go simply with "Sexuality". It is clinical and to the point, like how it should be. LOL both "Pleasant Company" and "Carnal Pleasures" sounds so theatrical, like as if I'm reading something written by Shakespeare :) [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:49, 22 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::::Lol yea, I guess it was just an improvement attempt over "Pleasant company" to drive the point across to him that we need something to highlight that stuff. Yea Sexuality is better and matches the rest of what we have. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 17:26, 22 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
== Proposed addition to contradictions in the Qur'an == | |||
Sharp contrast towards the people of the book. | |||
===The People of the Book are right=== | |||
Yes | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|10|94}}| If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. }} | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|13|43}}| The Unbelievers say: "No messenger art thou." Say: "Enough for a witness between me and you is Allah, and such as have knowledge of the Book." }} | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|29|46}}| And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." }} | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|74|31}}| And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. }} | |||
No | |||
{{Quote|{{cite Quran|3|65|end=69|style=ref}}|Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?<br> | |||
Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!<br> | |||
Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.<br> | |||
Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.<br> | |||
It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive! }} | |||
{{Quote|{{cite Quran|3|71|end=73|style=ref}}| Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge? <br> | |||
A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back;<br> | |||
"And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say: "True guidance is the Guidance of Allah: (Fear ye) Lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) Like unto that which was sent unto you? or that those (Receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord?" Say: "All bounties are in the hand of Allah: He granteth them to whom He pleaseth: And Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things." }} | |||
I collected some of quotes about the people of the book on [[User:PW._Jansen/Sandbox/People_of_the_Book_in_the_Qur%27an]] so you can shop around there. This is a page in the making. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/PW. Jansen|contribs]]) {{#if:|  |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) </small> | |||
:You can work with Saggy on QHS issues. He has some pages about that in his sandbox. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 18:09, 19 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::I could not find the page you mean. [[Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:People_of_the_Book ]] from Sahab comes closest but it does not have it organized, so the contrast is unclear. 10:94 is missing there too. Saggy's page does not have a sandbox page about this as far as I can see. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 02:59, 22 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
== QHS should not include hadiths and scholars? == | |||
This was worthy of having its own section. [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APW._Jansen&diff=109769&oldid=109759 Here] you say that QHS:Heaven should not have hadiths and scholars. Its definitely one of the strangest things I've heard from an editor here. The page title is clearly "Quran '''hadith and scholars'''" and we have about 50 or 100 existing QHS pages which are full of hadiths and scholars. ([http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Category:QHS 79] to be exact) | |||
So should we remove all hadiths and verses from [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Women QHS women?] Yes or No? Thats the question you should respond to. If its a "no", why should we have them at QHS:women but not at QHS:Heaven? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:41, 22 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
: No Axius, but I think organizing should start before it is complete. The Qur'an is the most authoritative source for Muslims, and if that part is up to level we can organize it, giving it headers, so searching is easier. Waiting with organizing until it is all complete would take too long, and would make the site less convenient to use. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 03:18, 23 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::PWJ, you did not respond to my specific question which was: Should the hadiths from [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Women QHS:Women] be deleted? If not, why not? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:43, 23 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
== No more main space edits - Edits removed == | |||
I have reverted all or most of your previous edits. We cannot compromise on site quality. Saying that a QHS page (which is '''TITLED''' Hadiths and Scholars) should not have hadiths on it is a serious mistake for logical thinking. The same is the case for listing a verse about Virgins in a section called "Furniture" and then suggesting your version of the page is better than the existing one which doesn't have any headings at all and that was after I pointed out the issue. There are other issues with your editing that others have seen. | |||
This site cannot accept edits from people who make thinking mistakes like that (if it was correctable or something they realized it would be another issue) and we do not have the time to review such a person's edits on main space. | |||
[http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Characteristics_of_Non-Muslims&diff=109790&oldid=109453 These] are edits of yours that I removed for QHS:non-Muslims. Please work in a Sandbox and work with us to get these edits into main space so we can be sure they are all 100% correct because I would definitely like to see them into main space but only after they are reviewed. | |||
Once again, do not edit any more main space articles. Again you are welcome to edit your own Sandboxes (do not edit main space Sandboxes, which means pages beginning with 'WikiIslam:Sandbox' ...). Let me know if you have any questions or if I wasn't clear about something. | |||
We have a new policy in any case that tells new editors not to edit main space. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 05:20, 22 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::Axius this was a response to a remark from Sahab on your talk page:<br> | |||
''Those sound like emotional reasons, so those alone aren't reason enough to justify a page such as that. As I noted earlier, two quotes are not enough for a stand-alone page, but feel free to add the contents of WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Ransom to Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Miscellaneous (placing the Heading "Ransom" in its correct alphabetically order). --Sahab (talk) 14:05, 25 August 2014 (PDT)'' <br> | |||
::I thought I did put that in the edit summary. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 03:23, 23 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::Yes I did see that however you did not look at my reply: Sahab did not give an explicit approval of ''that'' certain hadith to be listed in the Ransom section. It was general advice for moving a new topic into Misc, until it justifies its own page. | |||
:::What is your reply for Ransom not being mentioned in Arabic? I asked you that question above. Please see that question again. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:45, 23 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
PWJ emailed the site account and said he does not wish to contribute anymore. I mentioned again that for example the page was titled 'Quran hadiths and Scholars', so the logical thing is to have hadiths on the page. Yet he refused to acknowledge such a basic mistake or acknowledge the importance of Hadiths in Islam as mentioned by Sahab above. | |||
The website is [[What_People_Say_About_WikiIslam|well liked]] by people due to the hard work and attention to detail that existing editors have put into it. This would not be possible if they made basic mistakes and refused to acknowledge them. | |||
PWJ, good luck to you as well and thanks for visting. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:19, 23 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
==Quitting== | |||
I am quitting as an editor, and informed Axius about the reasons. I will not respond to any changes. Thanks and good luck.--[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 16:15, 24 October 2014 (PDT) | |||
:I have already written a message about this [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APW._Jansen&diff=109842&oldid=109840] that is present above. Thank you for your earlier contributions. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 16:45, 24 October 2014 (PDT) | |||