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Axius

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 :::Asides from that 72 V article, feel free to translate any other articles which you think are important and should be read by Turkish people. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 16:46, 5 March 2013 (PST)
+''(topic split):''
+==Translations==
 ::::@Axius: I'm translating word-for-word. Some of the hadiths and ayats need more precise translations than word-for-word interpretation, so i need to copy them from external sources of well known and trusted Turkish interpretors. But the online resources where i find these translations are not under edu domains. How can/should i cite those resources? [[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 01:22, 6 March 2013 (PST)
 :::::Give me the links to those sources and I'll check them out. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 04:50, 6 March 2013 (PST)
@@ Line 100: / Line 101: @@
 :Unfortunately all Turkish hadith sites seem to be using the same or similar sequential(1-n) order. If it helps, i can download and reformat the hadiths to be inserted into wikimedia in bulk if it's possible, but i don't know how this (4:52:250) numbering is formed (book numbers, volumes etc.), so even if wikiislam holds it's own Turkish hadiths database, it'll still be in the same sequential order.[[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 11:37, 7 March 2013 (PST)
+:Kütub-u Sitte is the collection of the six most trusted hadith books (sahih buhari, muslim, tirmisi (tirmidhi?), ebu davud, ibni mace) (kütub-u = books of, sitte=six). [[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 13:07, 7 March 2013 (PST)
+Sorry if I'm not clear in my explanations. Its the first time I'm trying to do this for a language I dont know.
+If all of those sites have the same types of pages, then we're in good shape. I did do a google search however and I couldnt find another version of Buhari, so I'll let you do that search since I'm not familiar with the language.
+We're not able to copy the hadiths to our site (although I should copy the sites and make a backup if possible on my PC, just in case) due to copyright issues. It would be a lot of work for you also to copy/reformat the hadiths. So we just want to quote the ones we need and link to them, like we do for english.
+The reason why its critical to make good templates in the beginning is that after they are used in thousands of places, we want those links to keep working if a website goes down.
+So what I mean is this. When you say this:
+:''For example  http://hadis.ihya.org/buhari/konu/763.html is exact translation of [http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.250  Sahih Bukhari 4:52:250]''
+See the '763' in the URL? The way we'll use the template is {{template|763<nowiki>}}</nowiki>, and it will make a link to that page. If that site does offline or changes its URL (it happened to our Quran/hadith template a couple of times), I just changed the template and the links were working again. The reason was the same structure was present in other websites as well.
+So are there other websites that have the same Buhakri collection and they have a '763' URL that will take us to the same hadith? For example I give the example of the Quran:
+*http://www.kuranmeali.org/2/bakara_suresi/105.ayet/kurani_kerim_mealleri.aspx
+*http://www.kurandakihidayet.com/2/bakara_suresi/105.ayet/kurani_kerim_mealleri.aspx
+Note they have the same 2/105 system but they are different websites. If one site goes down, I can change the template to go to the other site and all the links will work again.
+In short give me all the links you can find for the Turkish Bukhari collection and I'll check them out to see. I dont know how the Sitte will work but we will work on that also. I dont understand the system for the Sitte hadith on that site. Looks like one page has multiple hadith. Give me links to various sites for Sitte hadith also so I can look at all of them to see if there's a common structure.  --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 18:44, 7 March 2013 (PST)
+: I understand the template schema and how it works. Problem with the turkish hadiths, that are available online is there is no exact online copy of the bukhari or others, but instead there are classification works of devotees. Since most of the trusted hadith books already contain the same hadiths, and they each even contain the same hadiths in several subsections again and again many times, these devotees have classified and regrouped the hadiths. For example: {{Buhari|763}} , {{Bukhari|4|52|250}}, [http://www.enfal.de/buhari/cihad.htm#_Toc115014243 this] are the same. Bukhari's sahih said to have 9082 hadiths, but the number of unique hadiths are said to be 2761 or so. Buhari's sahih has 97 books, usc.edu has 93. It's almost impossible to find exact match between online sources for hadiths, especially when they are not originated from the same source(same translator). That's why i offered to upload a classified version of the hadiths to wikiislam.   [http://muhaddis.org/ Muhaddis.org] has done this classification for sitte and makes this data [http://www.muhaddis.org/ks.zip freely distributable].
+::Thanks for the Zip link. I saved that text file to my computer.
+::So if all the sites have different naming systems, we can go with any of the sites and it doesnt matter, like Ihya.
+::Glad you know about the template system. A template is good, if when its clicked, it either goes to a separate page for that reference (like the new Turkish Quran template) {{Kuran|2|105}}, or it goes to the individual section like here: {{Bukhari|4|52|250}}. In both cases, the reader can verify the source easily.
+::We have different options:
+::#Using the current template model and assuming the hadith will stay in Ihya.org. You use only the hadith that you need. If there are multiple hadiths per page, we can link to that page but the reader will just have to search for the relevant hadith themselves. This is easiest option.
+::#Copy the needed hadith to our site on a separate Hadith page and our template references that page instead of an external site (our hadith page will still reference an external site). In this system, multiple Hadiths will be on a single page but we can verify each hadith separately, as the link will auto-scroll to the one we need, like here: {{Bukhari|4|52|250}}
+::# Some kind of archiving of ''all'' the hadith, but thats too many hadith to put them online.
+::So yea I'm thinking (1) is easiest. I like (2) as the best for Hadith, because our template link will always go to a single Hadith. If a Sitte hadith page has 5 hadiths and there's no way to link to each of them individually, then the reader has to hunt for the hadith. You just quote the hadith you want to quote and the link can either be a template link (if possible, like for Buhari which works for us) or a static link, that doesnt use a template. It will work out fine.
+::I see Buhari had one hadith per page (or if there are HTML anchor links, those also work like our existing Quran/hadith templates) so the template works for that case.
+:: As far as I can see, there's no way to make a template for the Sitte hadith so that when its clicked, it shows one hadith (its own page or section). If this is so, then (2) is the solution for that. We keep the Quran and Buhari as they are, but we use (2) for the Sitte hadith. We can also use (2) for Buhari. Whichever you think is the best/most practical solution. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 18:00, 8 March 2013 (PST)
+Rethinking: we use Quran template as it is (the new turkish template).
+For hadiths: We quote the Turkish translation and we do something like this for what you translated just now: [[İslamda Cinsel Ayrımcılık]]
+{{Quote| [http://hadis.ihya.org/buhari/konu/763.html Buhari Hadis No 1260] (English source: {{Bukhari|1|12|829}})|Ümmü Seleme aktarıyor: Allah resulü selam verip namazı bitirdiğinde kadınlar hemen kalkarken, Allah resulü erkeklerin kalkmasını önlemek için oturduğu yerde kadınların çıkmasını beklerdi. (Ravi Az-Zuhri diyor ki, "Düşündük ki, doğrusunu Allah bilir, erkekler kadınlarla temas etmeden bir an önce kadınların çıkmasını sağlamak için bu şekilde yapmakta idi)."  }}
+I changed the small source text, which has both the English and Turkish sources. This way we are keeping track of the original English hadith, in case the Turklish link goes down. Any thoughts on a better alternative? This I think is actually better than for example what you see here [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilie_dans_le_Coran], where the English source is linked (because perhaps there was none available)
+So I think this Eng/Turkish sourcing is just fine. The most important thing is the translation itself and when we add two links, or (even one is fine). The advantage of having both sources is that verification can be made right there and it actually doesn't take any significant extra work, as opposed to any other method. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 19:17, 13 March 2013 (PDT)
+:Double linking is fine for me, at least lets reader to keep track of the hadiths even if relevant sources in their language do not exist.
+:I'm currently translating the 72 virgins article but the process is somewhat slow. Finding the equivalents of the hadiths in Turkish takes much time.[[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 03:47, 16 March 2013 (PDT)
+::Great thanks. One way to search for anything on a certain site (if it doesnt have Google search on it) is to type this in google:
+:::the sentence or words I am searching for site:thewebsite.com
+::With just the top-level domain, you'll search the whole site [https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=mahremi++site:ihya.org&oq=mahremi++site:ihya.org&gs_l=hp.3...1031473.1053584.0.1053791.53.38.2.0.0.9.357.3860.27j10j0j1.38.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.6.psy-ab.1wB4ZVgeZYc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmQ&fp=f2cbdd9dfbe0a582&biw=1920&bih=832 example]. If they have a sub-domain like in this case, you can search only within that[https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=mahremi+site:hadis.ihya.org&oq=mahremi+site:hadis.ihya.org&gs_l=hp.3...16683.65009.1.65376.9.9.0.0.0.1.108.704.8j1.9.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.6.psy-ab.wsoR0eCzHzk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmQ&fp=f2cbdd9dfbe0a582&biw=1920&bih=832]. You can try different words in case they used another word. Its ideal if you can find it translated but if you cant find it easily, you can translate it yourself and just link the English portion.  --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 08:43, 16 March 2013 (PDT)
+::: I wish it was that easy :) Turkish has suffered from being infiltrated by arabic and farsi since 1300ac and after 1500 when ottomans take over the khalifate, more and more arabic and farsi infiltrated into Turkish. The ottoman language was a freak show consisting of a little Turkish, vastly arabic and farsi. Now, we are using modern Turkish, which almost is a way cleaned up version of the Anatolian Turkish. These religious devotees still insist on using the arabised Turkish, that's why the translation goes like this: "english->modern Turkish-> arabised Turkish +  guess the words and search loop"
+::: for example:
+::: "Will he have any necessity of passing urine and stools" is "dışkılaması veya işemesi gerekecek mi?" in modern day Turkish, but the exact sentence from gazali's hadiths that is in arabised Turkish is "Muhakkak ki yiyen ve içen bir kimse def-i hacete mecbur olur". That is not even a direct question, and a rough translation would be "surely, one who eats or drinks will eventually have to get rid of hacet(need for something, here it means need for pee, or defecate)". It's almost always like this, that's why if i can not translate the hadith myself, searching for the originals might take hours. Anyway, it goes slow but steady.
+::::Thats interesting. Yea those two translations of the same thing look very different. Glad you know these things. Would have been nice if there was a 'modern' turkish hadith site. Good luck!--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 20:19, 16 March 2013 (PDT)
+Here's a template to start from, where everything can be edited directly: [[72_Virgins-tr]] (page title can be changed as well). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 10:04, 17 March 2013 (PDT)
+I have completed the translation of 72 virgins article. Please check if everything's in order.
+:Great thanks for doing this important article. The english article is #3 in our traffic ranks for the whole site and we'll get traffic on this new page as well as people start to find it. Looks great. I linked it here and there. Not sure what could be done next (depends on priority). Is there anything in Turkey where there's campaigns on both sides (e.g. women's rights, child marriages). Anything to help out people who are on the right side of the debate/issue. Or whatever topic you like (see Core articles on the left)--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 16:55, 20 March 2013 (PDT)
+::I hope it'll be useful. I won't be looking into another translation for a while, "72 virgins" was painful enough for me :) I might be writing articles from scratch or making additions to English ones, depending on the excellent works of [http://www.ilhanarsel.com/biographie-yasami/ İlhan Arsel], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan_Dursun Turan Dursun] and Erdoğan Aydın
+::By the way, do you have any plans for blocking tor exit nodes in the future? Tor is the only way for me to access certain sites without being monitored.[[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 14:46, 21 March 2013 (PDT)
+:::Ok. I hope you'll come back and do a few more translations of other important/high traffic articles. If you decide to, I'm thinking any article from [[Islam and Women]] would be nice. I wish it was easier. I'm happy that you did the 72v article.
+:::Original articles/essays are fine as long as they comply with our [[WikiIslam:Policies and Guidelines|policies]]. No we dont have any plans for blocking TOR. I see Wikipedia does it [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy/Tor_nodes] but we don't have a problem with vandalism as we are a small scale site and can have tighter control. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 18:08, 27 March 2013 (PDT)
+I'd some spare time today, and started to translate [[Revelation of the Hijab]] as [[Örtünmenin Vahyolunması]] . Only the body of the article is done for now, i'll complete the translation of the hadiths next week.[[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 16:12, 28 March 2013 (PDT)
+I have completed the translation, but there's a problem with the [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/%C3%96rt%C3%BCnmenin_Vahyolunmas%C4%B1#Allah_.C3.96mer.27le_ayn.C4.B1_fikirde Allah Ömer'le aynı fikirde] section and I could't find the cause of the problem. Could you please check it. [[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 19:19, 6 April 2013 (PDT)
+:Great, thanks! I fixed it. I removed the under construction template. Google has picked up the 72 huri page that you did. For the search terms 72 huri/72 bakire, the page is shown on the first results page near the top. And sorry I had missed your comment above on March 28. Nice work!
+:Sahabah, any comments? Looks complete. I linked it on the main page for in the new translation section. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 19:27, 6 April 2013 (PDT)
+kuranmeali.org seems to be dead for a while. Switching to http://www.kuranmeali.tv/ in the templates might be an option. Url schema is like http://www.kuranmeali.tv/1/5 bringing the fifth ayah of the first verse. This site provides the interpretations of well known tafsirists on each ayah too.[[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 13:08, 22 April 2013 (PDT)
+:Thanks! I fixed it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 15:13, 22 April 2013 (PDT)
+==Translation template help==
+Hi Altarbey! Could you please translate the following things for me? It is for use in our Turkish templates and hub-type pages:
+{{Quote||'''Translations'''
+A version of this page is also available in the '''English''' and '''Czech''' language. For additional languages, see the sidebar on the left.}}
+and:
+{{Quote||Articles in Turkish}}
+and:
+{{Quote||Site Map - Use to navigate WikiIslam and find the information you need}}
+{{Quote||This is an index page for WikiIslam articles in Turkish.}}
+Thanks for your help! [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 05:45, 4 July 2013 (PDT)
+Sure.
+{{Quote||'''Çeviriler'''
+Bu sayfanın ayrıca '''İngilizce''' ve '''Çekçe''' sürümü de mevcut. Diğer dillerdeki sürümler için sol taraftaki kolona göz atabilirsiniz.}}
+{{Quote||Türkçe Makaleler}}
+{{Quote||Site Haritası - WikiIslam içinde dolaşmak ve aradığınız bilgiye ulaşmak için kullanabilirsiniz}}
+{{Quote||Bu sayfa WikiIslam Türkçe Makaleler giriş sayfasıdır}} or {{Quote||WikiIslam Türkçe Makaleler giriş sayfasındasınız}} which roughly translates to "you are at the index page for wikiislam articles in turkish"
+[[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 15:40, 4 July 2013 (PDT)
+:Thanks! [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 19:12, 4 July 2013 (PDT)
+== On Articles ==
+I've just seen the article [[Dealing Justly with Wives and Orphans (Qur'an 4:3)|Dealing Justly with Wives and Orphans]]. Main thesis is "do not marry an orphan without giving their mahr justly, instead marry 2,3,4 women etc". Marrying 2,3,4 women does not mean "not giving any mahr". Knowing Muslims' uncontrollable sex drive, an ayah saying "instead of marrying the one that you can not act equitably like paying less mahr, marry 4 and also pay more mahr"  does not even make any sense. This article does not address the real issue.
+See {{Quran|24|33}}.
+Besides many other functions, maids were also  used as sex slaves. They were used by their owners for owners sexual needs, for prostutition, as gift or treat to guests and friends, to pay owners' debts etc.
+There was no way of knowing the real father of the maid's daughter, if she was born in the owners house and her mother was used by others besides her owner. Orphan does not necessarly strictly mean "kid whose father died". It means "kid whose father is not known", and a dead father is just a subcategory of "not knownness"
+A maid's daughter is also a maid, and could be used like her mother. but if she was the owner's daughter -which is way questionable, if the owner was a generous man- then there's a problem; that is "sex between close relatives is forbidden".
+The fear of "behaving unjustly to orphans" is the fear of humping their own kid, not because of morals, but because of allah's prohibition. And the ayah means "if you need to taste a new skin but fear of the possibility of humping your own kid(s) born from your maids, marry other (free) women. if you can not deal with more women, then content yourself with one or (forget about the fresh meat and) keep going with the maids you already have".
+Unfortunately the hadiths about the less paying guardian seem to be a coverup for the issue, which might or might not be done by the sahabes, tafsirists or the prophet on purpose.
+:That's good information. We like to stick to the traditional interpretations, but that would be a great addition under a new section titled ''Alternative Views''. [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 02:49, 7 April 2013 (PDT)
+::I'll add the alternative views section, after collecting sufficient amount of ayahs and hadiths about the maids, sex slavery and the orphans. And i need to get fluent in writing in english in the meantime :)
+:: I have added alternative views, but hid the section with html comment blocks. It would be better if you consider whether it is ok to be published.
+:::Great. Thanks Altarbey! I'll take a look at it. [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 20:53, 1 July 2013 (PDT)
+Thanks for the edits. Out of curiosity, do you have any statistics on how many times have the Turkish translations been visited? [[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 16:34, 2 July 2013 (PDT)
+:hi Alterbey, it takes some time for traffic to build up as people find the link and start linking to it (depending on the topics popularity as well). For the combined views of those 3 fairly recent articles ([http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Category:T%C3%BCrk%C3%A7e_%28Turkish%29]) right now its about 500 views a month and increasing, the majority of them going to 72 virgins for over 400 views a month on that article alone (the English version gets that many in a day, which is our 3rd most popular page on the site). Search engines rank pages based on how many times they have been linked on other sites and which sites they were linked from. You can expect not much traffic for a recent page but as time goes the rank goes up as people notice and start linking to it and traffic increases. If you want to do articles which get more views you can chose topics which you think people are more likely to link on forums or are searching for (depends on the stuff that people talk about; women's rights, Aisha, Muslim Statistics etc). Don't be discouraged if you think the views are not as high as expected. Some of my favorite pages on the site (e.g. [[Farsideology]]) don't get a lot of traffic but thats ok. For all the pages on the site excluding the Russian site, we're getting around 12K views a day nowadays. Yea, so if you plan on doing new translations, I would say think about topics that you think people 'need' information on the most. Say if you had 10 popular topics like the 72 virgins, you may be getting 4000 views a month for that group (however again, the 72V may be the most popular page from that group). Articles about Islam and Science might also be a good choice for an existing Muslim population which believes Islam's connection with science. You'll see there will be a higher view rate after say 6 more months (a good number to notice a reliable difference).  --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 17:18, 2 July 2013 (PDT)
+I've created a Turkish hub page[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Turkce_Makaleler_-_Articles_in_Turkish] and added it to the left sidebar under "Translations". This should help make more people aware of them. [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 20:27, 10 July 2013 (PDT)
+@Axius any problems with the last part of [[Dealing Justly with Wives and Orphans (Qur'an 4:3)|Dealing Justly with Wives and Orphans]]?
+:Oh, well I guess I should have left a message after the [http://www.wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Dealing_Justly_with_Wives_and_Orphans_%28Qur%27an_4:3%29&diff=95878&oldid=95826 revert]. Its just that I knew it has to be reviewed (for example the way we spell BQ is Banu Qurayza). And also we write in a certain way for example we cant write stuff like ''"exchanged the maids they had when they got bored of them."''. etc. Just make sure you have the facts in and we let the reader make their own deductions, or write it like Ibn Warraq would write it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 15:26, 15 August 2013 (PDT)
+::Right, sorry about violating the format. [[User:Altarbey|Altarbey]] ([[User talk:Altarbey|talk]]) 15:37, 15 August 2013 (PDT)
+:::No problem. [[72_Huri_-_Bakire]] is doing pretty good on traffic and picking up. We have 2700 articles/pages right now and its ranked #77 on the list right now (this means its more popular than a lot of our older existing pages) and the rating may go down but over time it should be rising. If you can think of other topics that can be translated that would be nice. Topics related to Islam/women? Maybe. Anyway thats up to you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 15:57, 15 August 2013 (PDT)

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