Talk:The Quran and Mountains
- Thanks for your edits and on the other article. I'll let IbnPinker work out how to integrate your edits here as he recently rewrote the introduction and a few other parts. We have a format standard whereby there should be an introductory paragraph or two. Before making extensive edits I also recommend reading https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Message_to_New_Users and the pages linked therein. For example, if you drill down you'll find the page which explains how to cite hadiths using the templates, use quote blocks etc. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Source_Editing#Referencing_Hadith
- Regarding the added content, the History of Yaqubi point is too dubious because if you click the source and see the next few lines of the poem, it contains a prophecy about the coming of Muhammad, and therefore the poem is actually post Islamic. If that's on the Urdu page, I think it should be removed from there too.
- I also think the whole day like 1000 years section should be avoided. Muslims would just point to the other verse 70:4 which says a day is like 50,000 years to show the number is not fixed/literal. It's a strong enough point just that the mountains were made during four "days", or periods of the creation process (traditionally this is understood as the first four days, but it's unclear), yet we know that mountains continue to form to this day as it is an ongoing process. Hadiths can only be supplementary but not able to prove an error in the Quran, and tafsirs are even weaker again for this purpose (though sometimes of interest to show what Muslims believed).
- Regarding the bullet points, as mentioned above it's not clear from the Quran itself when the four days in which mountains were formed are supposed to occur (probably the first four but it's unclear). Also, I don't think it's accurate that Earth took billions of years to solidify. The sun formed about 5 billion years ago and the Earth solidified quite quickly after its formation 4.5 billion years ago. Life began within 500 million years of that. I think for this reason it's better to remove or revise most of those five bullet points and to not be too reliant on the hadiths for the argument (they just add extra strength but it needs to stand without them).
- I think it's true though that there is a need for better structuring and making it a bit more concise. The apologetic claims with mountains in the Quran are 1) The claim that they are like pegs in structure or function, and 2) that they stabilise the earth which comes in two flavours, a) the claim that they reduce earthquakes or b) the isostasy claim. As you've mentioned, these in fact are both scientific errors when properly analysed. Then there are in addition the other errors about mountains being cast down, and it's an ongoing process etc. where you made use of the scientific errors page. I'm not sure whether that should come first or after the other stuff but it needs to be well organized.
- One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains are part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.Lightyears (talk) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
Response to Lightyears
- Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.
(1) Your criticism of the tradition of History is Yaqubi is correct and it does praise Muhammad later. It should be removed.
(2) Regarding Verse 70:4. Yes, Muslims will use it as an excuse. Your suggestion is also acceptable to leave it till the mention of Quranic verse of 6 days creation, or the hadith from Sahih Muslim which claims it was the 2nd day of creation when the mountains were created. Nevertheless, still a question is if we should step back and let them go away by making such excuse of 70:4, or will it be BENEFICIAL if we counter their excuse with arguments/proofs? Issue is that this Quranic verse 70:4 is still not SPECIFICALLY proving that the time with Allah is "unspecified". Thus this Muslim claim of "unspecified time" is not Strong enough. And we could refute the verse 70:4 by saying: "The Critics point out that verse 70:4 is a contradiction in Quran itself, which shows that the writer of Quran is a human, and he himself forgot that he declared the day with him equal to 1000 years of human reckoning at other place". It may not sound as an absolute proof, but it is OUR correct position on this issue, and it should be thus mentioned merely alone on the basis of what we really believe.
(3) Regarding Ahadith and Tafasir: Yes off course they could not contradict the Quranic Verse, but the issue is that Quranic Verse is itself not supporting the Muslim claim that the time is "unspecified". It is not a proof from Muslims, but it is counted as a statement/conjecture. And this statement could indeed be rejected by Ahadith and the Tafasir, who all confirm that all the Sahaba pointed out that Quran mentioned the "specified" time of human reckoning during the process of creation. Our proof becomes more powerful as all the Ahadith and Tafasir also confirm that sahaba were of the same opinion too. Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute proofs", but about having "better proofs" than the other side.
(4) Bulleted proofs could be removed, or I search further and find out when the first mountain was formed and for how long did the earth stay in the molten state.At every cost, it seems that if would be much longer period than the 6x1000 years, or even 6x50000 years.
And at the end, I want to make it clear that I have absolutely no problem if all the edits are reversed. I wholeheartedly welcome this move too if admins believe it to be more beneficial. I have ZERO Ego in this regard and fully accept the authority of admins without getting upset. So please feel free in editing, deleting any of my stuff. Thanks.