WikiIslam

User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

User page Discussion

User:CPO675/Sandbox 1 (view source)

Revision as of 22:09, 23 November 2023

2,600 bytes added ,  23 November 2023
→‎Introduction
No edit summary
Line 17: Line 17:


=== Introduction ===
=== Introduction ===
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, that there is a batter between them. Both early (and medieval Muslims) (cite), and modern Academic scholarship<ref>Damien Janos (2012) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573 Qur’ānic cosmography in its historical perspective: some notes on the formation of a religious worldview], Religion, 42:2, 215-231, DOI: 10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573</ref>, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world. (Also Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general.<ref>Tasfir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 verses 25:51-54]</ref><ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 verse 25:53]</ref>
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, that there is a batter between them. Both early (and medieval Muslims) (cite), and modern Academic scholarship<ref>Damien Janos (2012) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573 Qur’ānic cosmography in its historical perspective: some notes on the formation of a religious worldview], Religion, 42:2, 215-231, DOI: 10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573</ref>, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world. (Also Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water .<ref>Tasfir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 verses 25:51-54]</ref><ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 verse 25:53]</ref>


Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and many actually conflict with the description.   
Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and many actually conflict with the description.   


When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.
When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.
=== The Qur'an ===
=== The Qur'an ===
We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.
We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.
Line 61: Line 59:
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}


* This description could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image X), leading people to assu<nowiki/>me there was an actual barrier between the two waters, and assuming they didn't mix - as there's no science about mixing bodies of water in the barrier stated in the Quran verses. Hence no-body was able to discover anything new from the verse, and as observable (and arguably incorrect as we will discuss below), it is certainly not a miracle.
# This description could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image X), leading people to assu<nowiki/>me there was an actual barrier between the two waters, and assuming they didn't mix - as there's no science about mixing bodies of water in the barrier stated in the Quran verses. Hence no-body was able to discover anything new from the verse, and as observable (and arguably incorrect as we will discuss below), it is certainly not a miracle. Anyone who rode over the seas could write the same thing assuming there is an actual barrier between the two seas
* - such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water?
# - such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water?
* Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref>
# Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref>
* There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html


* In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically the '''two seas(l-baḥrayni)''', one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context
# In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically the '''two seas(l-baḥrayni)''', one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context
* The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false.
# The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false.
* It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier'  - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case
# It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier'  - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case
* Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>  
# Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>  
*
#
*
#




Line 78: Line 76:


There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes
There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes
Anyone who rode over the seas could write the same thing assuming there is a barrier between the two seas


A good easy to read guide on these issues for those interest is CostalWiki https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries
A good easy to read guide on these issues for those interest is CostalWiki https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries
Line 133: Line 128:
18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force.  
18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force.  
18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.
18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}Hadith on this verse including {{Bukhari|4|55|613}}
 
* Someone who has this foresight makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions
* Someone who has this foresight makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions
* Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)-  only hadith name him
* Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)-  only hadith name him
Line 140: Line 134:


=== Islamic Views ===
=== Islamic Views ===
'''Hadith'''
'''Hadith and Qur'an'''


In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see [[Buraq]]), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrates Euphrates]. This clearly backs up the idea that fresh water comes in via a freshwater cosmic ocean
In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see [[Buraq]]), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrates Euphrates]. This clearly backs up the idea that fresh water comes in via a freshwater cosmic ocean
Line 147: Line 141:
{{Quote|{{Muslim|40|6807}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.}}
{{Quote|{{Muslim|40|6807}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.}}


As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'weak', show's early Muslim understanding of the verses sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:
{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah||1|1|193}}|"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. <b>'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another.</b> Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats. The distance between their hooves and their knees is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then on their backs is the Throne, and the distance between the top and the bottom of the Throne is like the distance between one heaven and another. Then Allah is above that, the Blessed and Exalted."}}


From this Quran verse:


'''Commentaries'''
{{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}}
 
'''Islamic Commentaries'''


[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], a prominent Sunni Scholar  
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], a prominent Sunni Scholar  
Line 167: Line 167:
=== The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature ===
=== The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature ===
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]].
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]].
The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6 | title=Genesis 1:7}}|(Genesis 1:6-9)  6 And God said, dLet there be a †firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were eabove the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, fLet the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 1}}


=== Other religions an cosmic waters ===
=== Other religions an cosmic waters ===
CPO675
399

edits

Retrieved from "http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/137672"